Another joyous hydraulic brake thread

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Location
Loch side.
OT now, but hang on that's just silly. Air the 10th of a size of a champage bubble can't compress more than, well a 10th of a champagne bubble if you compress it to zero. The difference in movement at the bar will be , what, a thou. . 5ml of air will compress down to a smaller volume and result in a fair bit of spongyness.
You have to see it for yourself to appreciate it. It is tiny. The feed hole from a brake reservoir to the circuit is minute. Needle small. The amount of fluid that's moved with one application of the brake is probably just a mill. To appreciate how little, you can always push a piston back using a tool of sorts. You'll feel the ultra slow movement of the piston and perhaps think it is resistance from the seals. But it is not. It is the fluid that has to go back through the feed hole into the reservoir.
When bleeding, we reverse bleed. We syringe fluid into the caliper up towards the handlebars and watch this little feed hole for bubbles coming out. Some people don't even recognise them as bubbles - if there is even more than one. It's like a spec of a bubble. Try it, you'll like it.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
You have to see it for yourself to appreciate it. It is tiny. The feed hole from a brake reservoir to the circuit is minute. Needle small. The amount of fluid that's moved with one application of the brake is probably just a mill. To appreciate how little, you can always push a piston back using a tool of sorts. You'll feel the ultra slow movement of the piston and perhaps think it is resistance from the seals. But it is not. It is the fluid that has to go back through the feed hole into the reservoir.
When bleeding, we reverse bleed. We syringe fluid into the caliper up towards the handlebars and watch this little feed hole for bubbles coming out. Some people don't even recognise them as bubbles - if there is even more than one. It's like a spec of a bubble. Try it, you'll like it.

I've only ever done car brakes and (especially) clutches. My recollection is that there was a gradual deterioration from perfect, to ok, to could be better, to no worky. Hard to say how much air came out because you'd initially get a load of bubbles from your rubber pipe dipped into your jar of brake fluid. Tended to keep flushing through till the tiny bubbles stopped.

Edit: Do push bike brakes even have bleed nipples, or do you have to do the syringy thing you mention - which does sound rather tricky
 
OP
OP
Jody

Jody

Stubborn git
Edit: Do push bike brakes even have bleed nipples, or do you have to do the syringy thing you mention - which does sound rather tricky

They have bleed nipples on the caliper but don't bleed like car brakes. Shimano aren't that tricky to bleed.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
They have bleed nipples on the caliper but don't bleed like car brakes

well OT now

I appreciate you do it a different way, but does that mean you can't to the pipe on the nipple into a jam jar of fluid and flush through method?
 
OP
OP
Jody

Jody

Stubborn git
well OT now

I appreciate you do it a different way, but does that mean you can't to the pipe on the nipple into a jam jar of fluid and flush through method?

Its the opposite way round. Syringe with a pipe on the bleed nipple and a cup screwed into the orifice on the master cylinder. Fluid is pushed upwards through the system until the air is clear.
 
Location
Loch side.
I've only ever done car brakes and (especially) clutches. My recollection is that there was a gradual deterioration from perfect, to ok, to could be better, to no worky. Hard to say how much air came out because you'd initially get a load of bubbles from your rubber pipe dipped into your jar of brake fluid. Tended to keep flushing through till the tiny bubbles stopped.

Edit: Do push bike brakes even have bleed nipples, or do you have to do the syringy thing you mention - which does sound rather tricky

Yes, they have bleed nipples. Some of them have grub screws in ports. You remove the grub screw and screw in a nipple.
Bleeding is not like in a car. You just open the port/nipple on the caliper, remove the lid on the reservoir at the handlebar and squeeze fluid in from the bottom. No pumping required. IIRC, the entire system has something like only 15ml of fluid in it. We use transparent plastic syringes with transparent silicone tubing. We can see bubbles go in because you cannot not get air in when you start. However, this air is out the top within 5 or 10ml of fluid being pushed in. If it is a Shimano system, this is good to go - no internal traps. If it is Elixir, you can fiddle for days to get the bubbles out.

When you bleed a system with an open reservoir like Shimano or Hayes or Hope, you can see into the reservoir and observe what comes out. That's when you can see the micro bubble escaping and you know your problems are over.

Older brakes and absolute rubbish brakes such as Avid Elixir, are full of bubble traps. Thankfully the last few years saw a huge improvement in internal cavity design so that you don't have to tap like hell with a screwdriver to try and dislodge bubbles nor do the bleed process in all sorts of angles.

The bubbles that make the difference are too small to float to the top by themselves. In other words, the difference in density is smaller than the fluid's viscosity and even should you hang the caliper straight down by its hose and shake it, the bubbles won't float to the top.

Two things have puzzled me over the years and I have not had anybody to help me solve the problem.

1) Why does such a small bubble make such a big difference. You posed this question again and in all my years of training mechanics, none have ever asked me that question. It is kinda good 'cause I don't know the answer.

2) Why does pumping the lever temporarily harden up the system? Where does that bubble go when you pump? I wish I had a transparent brake assembly and can fill it with various coloured liquids and just observe.
 
Last edited:

Profpointy

Legendary Member
Yes, they have bleed nipples. Some of them have grub screws in ports. You remove the grub screw and screw in a nipple.
Bleeding is not like in a car. You just open the port/nipple on the caliper, remove the lid on the reservoir at the handlebar and squeeze fluid in from the bottom. No pumping required. IIRC, the entire system has something like only 15ml of fluid in it. We use transparent plastic syringes with transparent silicone tubing. We can see bubbles go in because you cannot not get air in when you start. However, this air is out the top within 5 or 10ml of fluid being pushed in. If it is a Shimano system, this is good to go - no internal traps. If it is Elixir, you can fiddle for days to get the bubbles out.

When you bleed a system with an open reservoir like Shimano or Hayes or Hope, you can see into the reservoir and observe what comes out. That's when you can see the micro bubble escaping and you know your problems are over.

Older brakes and absolute rubbish brakes such as Avid Elixir, are full of bubble traps. Thankfully the last few years saw a huge improvement in internal cavity design so that you don't have to tap like hell with a screwdriver to try and dislodge bubbles nor do the bleed process in all sorts of angles.

The bubbles that make the difference are too small to float to the top by themselves. In other words, the difference in density is smaller than the fluid's viscosity and even should you hang the caliper straight down by its hose and shake it, the bubbles won't float to the top.

Two things have puzzled me over the years and I have not had anybody to help me solve the problem.

1) Why does such a small bubble make such a big difference. You posed this question again and in all my years of training mechanics, none have ever asked me that question. It is kinda good 'cause I don't know the answer.

2) Why does pumping the lever temporarily harden up the system? Where does that bubble go when you pump? I wish I had a transparent brake assembly and can fill it with various coloured liquids and just observe.

Mmm, intrigued by your q2. You'd think bubble would squash then instantly expand again when you release the pedal. And yet it seems to stay squashed after a bit of pumping. Maybe it's something to do with your small hole explanation and that the pressure only releases slowly - and yet the brakes release straightway so that can't be quite right either
 
Location
Loch side.
Mmm, intrigued by your q2. You'd think bubble would squash then instantly expand again when you release the pedal. And yet it seems to stay squashed after a bit of pumping. Maybe it's something to do with your small hole explanation and that the pressure only releases slowly - and yet the brakes release straightway so that can't be quite right either

I hope it gives you sleepless nights. Report back when you have a theory.
 

rogerzilla

Legendary Member
Avid Elixirs seem to need bleeding every few months. The fluid absorbs water so readily that it expands and the brakes start to drag. I assume this is because they use rather porous hoses and seals. They work well when freshly bled but they are the highest maintenance brakes I've ever had. One day I might change them for mineral oil brakes.
 

Drago

Legendary Member
I quickly developed a pathological loathing of Hope for similar reasons. Switched to Shimano for all my hydro's in 2009, and things haven't been perfect, but are much more tolerable.
 

rogerzilla

Legendary Member
I quickly developed a pathological loathing of Hope for similar reasons. Switched to Shimano for all my hydro's in 2009, and things haven't been perfect, but are much more tolerable.

I had similar experience with Hope - worked for a short while then started dragging and making a noise like a UFO. To make things worse, the version I had was particularly difficult to centre on the disc because it involved faffing around with shim washers.
 
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OP
Jody

Jody

Stubborn git
No problems in using this thread if you want @glasgowcyclist

Looks like my problem was a bit of brake pad contamination. Who knows where from but dragging down a few long, steep and fast off road down hill sections must have burnt it off as the problem hasn't been back *touch wood*

Sharp again from the first pull
 
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