Another moan: Cyclist in ASLs

[magnatom]

The sad reality is that if you do filter at all, then even if the car drivers soo you, this promotes resentment, and once the lights change irrespective of where you are, unless you are directly in their path, a good majority will move off whilst you are alongside.. You cannot guarantee whilst filtering to your 'safe spot' that the lights won't change and the traffic starts moving.

Irrespective of where the safe spot is, if you are moving into it, you are in the eyes of the drivers behind it creating an obstruction where there wasn't one.

What happens also if you get caught at the head of the queue anyway - same problem as with an ASL. The drivers will be looking to get past you ASAP - as they do.

If you filter into a spot a few cars back you have time on your side. If the lights change as you filter into a spot two or three cars back then you have a good few seconds before they will move. Remember that cars have to wait until the car in front moves, and generally leave a gap which the cyclist can exploit. Also by filtering up the right hand side, this is directly in the field of view of the driver. So long as you keep an eye on the car you are filtering in front of, there is very rarely a problem. If there was, you always have the option of slowing and filtering into the space behind. Also any oncoming cars have no problem seeing you in this position.

I have never had a problem with this type of filtering. In fact I can only think of one occasion where I have had a toot, when I have done this. Even then I filtered in fine.

 

[grhm]

I too tend to filter to a space 1 or 2 cars from the front. I think it generally preferable to not be at the front (but each to their own).

I do it because when the lights change, the lead car(s) pulls away and I follow. I can sit in the middle of the lane to stop stupid overtakes before the pinch point that is the traffic light island on the other side of the junction. I've not had one silly overtake or a driver complain to date. They can see me and that I'm keeping up with the car infront - it's not me holding them up it's the car in front of me. This is based on the assumption that I can accelerate and (roughly) keep pace with a car for the length of the junction - if the car pulls away quickly then I could well be holding up the car behind - but I'd be doing that no matter where I was in the queue.

I practically never filter on the left - too many times have I seen a passenger decide to jump out quick while the car is stationary. Filtering on the right you don't get (tend to) passengers/driver jumping out and don't get squeezed into the kerb/railings. If I decide to go past a car, it's because I think I can see my way clear and am not squeezing through a diminishing space.

 

[very-near]

If you filter into a spot a few cars back you have time on your side. If the lights change as you filter into a spot two or three cars back then you have a good few seconds before they will move. Remember that cars have to wait until the car in front moves, and generally leave a gap which the cyclist can exploit. Also by filtering up the right hand side, this is directly in the field of view of the driver. So long as you keep an eye on the car you are filtering in front of, there is very rarely a problem. If there was, you always have the option of slowing and filtering into the space behind. Also any oncoming cars have no problem seeing you in this position.

I have never had a problem with this type of filtering. In fact I can only think of one occasion where I have had a toot, when I have done this. Even then I filtered in fine.

Filtering up the right hand side of cars is OK provided they are looking in their mirrors, and you aren't filtering in between 2 lines of cars. unfortunately, most of my town is covered by a 2 lane racetrack one way system so the option to filter to the right of a vehicle doesn't always put you in the correct lane for your destination.

 

[magnatom]

Filtering up the right hand side of cars is OK provided they are looking in their mirrors, and you aren't filtering in between 2 lines of cars. unfortunately, most of my town is covered by a 2 lane racetrack one way system so the option to filter to the right of a vehicle doesn't always put you in the correct lane for your destination.

Of course drivers should be looking in their mirrors, but they don't need to to make right filtering safe. Remember, I am talking about filtering past stationary traffic. The only issue occurs when the traffic starts moving up ahead. So long as you are always looking at cars further up the queue, you can see this coming, and can chose your car to slot in front of. You slot in, only after you have entered their forward field of view, so no need for them to use their wing mirror.

If it is muti-lane, then you filter down the right of the lane you need to be in.

If the traffic remains stationary, as you approach the front, you look for a space between the stationary cars. Some cars leave more than others, and even if there is not much room, chose your space and stop just to the front right of the car you want to be in front of. Look around at them, make sure they have seen you, and when the traffic pulls off just check that they are hanging back for you. I've never had a problem with this, and it removes the need to filter to the front where conflict is more likely.

If we really need to have road markings then the early stop zone that I linked to earlier would be better than the ASL. In my opinion of course.

 

[magnatom]

I've never had problems filtering, after a while it becomes second nature.

Yes, but we are talking in general. You have to admit that filtering up the left on approach to a light controlled junction where traffic can turn left, and getting to the front as the lights change increases the cyclists risk of incident (possibly serious).

I'm just saying that ASLs encourage those, who don't know better, to go to the front, sometimes in a dangerous way. As with all road markings I think they provide a false sense of security to those who follow them blindly.

 

[bonj2]

What rubbish? Have you filtered on a bike before? That's why you look at the driver of the vehicle as you approach them to see what they are doing. Maintain a good speed and you'll have no problems.

I've gone around Watfords one way system on a bike and on a trike with no problems at all. I'm beginning to think some people don't know how to ride a bike reading some of the posts on here just lately.

Personally, it's not whether they are looking in their mirrors or not, but whether they are able to set off. If there is space in front of them, I tend to assume that they will fill it, whether or not they are looking in their mirrors, which usually you can't determine just by looking at them.. The way I move in is when there is a space and a vehicle is moving but leaving a gap between itself and the vehicle in front (which is also moving), then I latch onto the back of the vehicle in front so that even if the vehicle behind closes the gap slightly it's still ok.

 

[very-near]

What rubbish? Have you filtered on a bike before? That's why you look at the driver of the vehicle as you approach them to see what they are doing. Maintain a good speed and you'll have no problems.

I've gone around Watfords one way system on a bike and on a trike with no problems at all. I'm beginning to think some people don't know how to ride a bike reading some of the posts on here just lately.

If you let us know which charm school you attended, we will then know to avoid it Lee.

I average about 1,000 miles a year on the cycle (mostly around town, not commuting to work), and about 5,000 miles a year on the m/cycle (commuting and rides out). I filter as fast or as slow as I feel safe too.

 

[magnatom]

Not really-just stop before the junction if you think you are going to get caught out.

That's fine for an experienced cyclist (even then I think there is still an increased risk of you making a mistake) but remember this thread started about ASLs which are there for the in-experienced cyclist, so I am talking in general terms of what best practice is.

The problem is the perception that filtering down the right is more dangerous, when in fact it is probably safer, and allows for more seamless slotting into to traffic when it does start to move (due to line of sight issues).

 

[very-near]

Sorry but when someone comes out with a load of crap they have to be told. Read the road ahead well enough and you can filter anywhere you like.

Doesn't matter about the amount of traffic, how many lanes of traffic or the speed of traffic.

1000 miles a year on a bike, just over 3 miles a day? No wonder

I don't use it ever day as I don't commute on it. I've already said this, but I commute the m/cycle most days provided it's not sub zero and filter all the time on that, making for about 6,000 miles a year on 2 wheels, mostly in town traffic (filtering where it is possible) as that is where I live, and I've not had an accident filtering in the years I've been riding both cycles and m/cycles (probably longer than you have been alive)

You risk coming over as a bit 'self riteous' in this post Lee.

 

[very-near]

Not at all, am speaking from experience. I do double and then some miles on a my bike/trike to what you do in a year.

edit: looking back at your post you mention how you shouldn't filter between two lanes of traffic-this is crap is it not?

Don't you ever filter in between two lanes of slow moving traffic on a Mbike when you are on the Motorway?

You cycle commute 12,000+ miles per year or 33+ miles per day, 7 days per week ? - 10 out of 10 for effort if this is the case

However, I have a family and other interests which are more important to me than spending all my spare time on the m/cycle or in the saddle.

I have no problem filtering between 2 lanes on a cycle or m/cycle, but the risk of doing so is obviously greater than staying put in the queue (risk management again)
What I do say is that when the cars begin to move if you are between 2 lines of cars, either you can get ahead of them (as I do with a m/cycle), or get safely behind them (provided the car behind them plays the game)

Filtering safely relies upon the car drivers playing the game. If they don't you are buggered if you can't get and stay in front of them.

 

[very-near]

Again, no it doesn't.

Filtering safely relies on the experience, awareness and competence of the cyclist/rider. Very occasionally the actions of a driver may catch you out, but if you do things right this is minimal.

In relation when knowing when to hold back on a left turn whilst on the inside yes, but if you are in between 2 lines of cars and filtering, if they move off, you rely on them letting you back in the lane - 'playing the game'. If they choose to 'pretend' you are not there, then you then have to rely on the driver behind them 'playing the game' etc etc.

 

[very-near]

No.

You should never commit yourself to a manoeuvre unless you've got a get-out. I don't rely on cars letting me in because I go for the reasonable gap and they don't get any choice, in the same was as when changing lanes in a car. It's not about forcing your way in but considering the following driver and being assertive.

Filtering is not a right. If you can't do it safely then you shouldn't blame other road users for your own actions.

Filtering is most certainly a right or else it would be illegal MrP. the legal requirement is that it is done with consideration and care.

 

[very-near]

Again, no. There is no specific provision on the road for filtering. If it was a right then there would be, and it would be mandatory for cars to get out of your way.

It isn't, so you're responsible and it's conditional on the availability and your safety.

Written for motorcyclists, but the law applies equally to cycles.

http://www.motorbikestoday.com/news/Articles/filtering_law.htm

Now you and I could play this cat and mouse game for weeks (as we have done) but should we not be looking to make cycling as safe as possible by educating drivers of their obligation to look for and consider filtering cyclists (and m/cyclists) ?

 

[very-near]

Thanks for the article that states that filtering is legal if the traffic is stationary, grey if it's moving slowly, and illegal if once traffic is flowing. Not that you've got a right to expect to be able to do it and blame others if you get yourself into a pickle. You've made the mistake again of being unable to separate blame from personal responsibility.

I'm not interested in cat and mouse.

I'm interested in people learning how to filter safely.

From the article-

"if the rider had no chance to take avoiding action"

This does not mean that you as a biker or cyclist have the right to get yourself into whatever ridiculous and unsafe position you like, because if someone else then does something which results in a collision it is there fault. Firstly because it's wrong, and secondly because if you had done things properly then you probably wouldn't be sitting with your leg in plaster.

As a road user, you should never commit to a manoeuvre unless you've got a contingency plan.

It's simple. And it's not cat and mouse, but ensuring that dangerous claims posted on this forum -which people look to for safety advice- are tempered with some wisdom and reality.

And again, the easiest way to maximise safety for riders and bikers is to educate them, not the drivers. Don't blame others linf while avoiding workign with the person you have most influence over -yourself.

If you are filtering, it is because the cars are nose to tail. There aren't any gaps. You have to make them yourself, or filter right up to the ASL. If the lights change whilst you are making your way to the ASL, then you best hope that the cars you are passing have seen you.

If you are driving your car, and someone filters up alongside you and then has to stop or the lights change etc, would you let them back in or leave them out there.

By your reasoning, Filtering is far too dangerous as there is always a risk you could get caught out.

 

[bonj2]

It's very very rarely impossible to pull back through a line of traffic that you have filtered on the offside of as it set off because as it sets off, gaps start appearing between the vehicles, gaps that aren't there when they're queuing and stationary. You've got to be a fairly shoot cyclist not to be able to see these gaps developing and move through them. The trick is to still be aware of the vehicle behind, but track the vehicle in front.