Any physicists on the forum - III

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Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
In Blade Runner, the president of Tyrell Corporation tells Roy:
"The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long. And you have burned so very, very brightly."

Is this true? For a long time I thought it wasn't, but now I think I was being too clever.
 

dan_bo

How much does it cost to Oldham?
With a current limited power supply, the above statement is true.
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
Depends if the relationship between the power consumed (power in) and measured brightness (power out) is linear with a gradient of 1!
 

twentysix by twentyfive

Clinging on tightly
Location
Over the Hill
Well - Hmmmmph. Need more info perhaps.

If assume that brightness is related to fuel supply in a linear fashion then yes. This might work with a candle. But brightness need not have that dependence I think. Just cos ya burns more fuel it doesn't mean stuff is brighter. It might mean you have a larger burn area (like a radiant gas fire)

There is often a misconception about brightness. Brightness isn't just power. It's power radiated into a solid angle. So Lasers are brighter than candles (but candles may be more powerful)
 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
ComedyPilot said:
Are any physicists on the forum ill?

Not feeling well, or just general sicklyness?

No no no but as Confucius says: "The more one knows the fewer questions one can answer..." :smile:
 

twentysix by twentyfive

Clinging on tightly
Location
Over the Hill
ComedyPilot said:
Are any physicists on the forum ill?

Not feeling well, or just general sicklyness?

Well I am feeling a bit yucky. Hoping it will pass.

I did hope I'd started down the correct line of explanation earlier.

OK - First Part.

Brightness is a Human related number. There are two main ones - Photopic and Scotopic. One (Photopic) relates to daylight (ie bright light and depends on the colour receptors in the eye - the cones). The other (Scotopic) is the dim light condition when the rods are the dominant eye sensor.

So Brightness depends on the individual and whether rods or cones are the primary active sensors. In practice folks use an average over the human population for both Photopic and Scotopic eye responses.

Also Brightness depends on colour (because the eye responds differently to red, blue and green etc). So the colour make up of the source also has an effect.

Second Part

Brightness is human weighted light intensity per unit solid angle. Or HumanWatts/m2/Steradian. So with our assumption that the source is uniformly radiating over 4 Pi Steradians we can effectively just think about HumanWatts/m2 at the eye. Which for a given distance from the source and with the eye set to a predetermined aperture it's just watts.

Third Part

The eye is an imageing device. So the watts which appear at the retina depend on the area of the image on the retina, or at our standard distance - the area of the source. So if the humanwatts emitted by the source increase and the area of the emission stays the same then the source will look brighter. However the other requirement is that the colour make up of the source must remain the same for us to be able to conclude - more fuel = brighter. In the case of a hot element light bulb this isn't the case because the hot element acts as a black body and only the emissions that the eye percieves counts. So at low currents the light bulb only emitts infrared and it has brightness = zero, whereas as the current increases the colour starts off red and works it's way up to blueish before it blows. The brightness of the bulb then is a convolution of the drive power, the blackbody radiation curve and the human eye response curve. Radiant gas fires don't increase brightness with more fuel because the burn takes place over a correspondingly larger area usually. Lasers have huge brightness because they are close to being diffraction limited - ie they make the smallest of images on the retina and turning the power up doesn't change the area illuminated up much if at all. They also tend to be single wavelength - so no colour change.

So - have I got it correct? Questions?
 
OP
OP
Yellow Fang

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
What are humanwatts? Is brightness related to human perception, or just a measure of energy intensity? (This is like that conundrum, if a tree falls in a forest when there's no one around to hear, does it make a noise?) Is brightness related to the density of photons, or also their energies? Where do candelas come in?
 

XmisterIS

Purveyor of fine nonsense
The statement quoted by the OP will only be true if (a) the devices being compared are functionally identical and spectrally identical within the visible waveband, (:ohmy: the process of the emission of visible radation by the device results in a degredation of the emitter that is linearly inversely proportional to the intensity of the visible radiation emitted within the range of intensities investigated in the experiment and (c) the intensity of visible radiation emitted by the device remains constant over time until a critical point of degredation of the emitter is reached, at which point the emitter instantaneously ceases to be able to emit visible radiation.
 

twentysix by twentyfive

Clinging on tightly
Location
Over the Hill
Yellow Fang said:
What are humanwatts? Is brightness related to human perception, or just a measure of energy intensity? (This is like that conundrum, if a tree falls in a forest when there's no one around to hear, does it make a noise?) Is brightness related to the density of photons, or also their energies? Where do candelas come in?

I invented HumanWatts to allow for the averaging over the average human eye ball. They are watts but with the average eyeball convolved in.

Brightness is a human perception which is related to Intensity of the light.

Candela is the SI unit of Luminous Intensity - which is effectively the intensity of the light with the average eyeball convolved in. ie a measure of brightness.
 
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