Any Police Officers on here?

[MichaelM]

What would be the definition of a dangerously out of control dog?

A brief outline:

I have a big dog (Husky/Shepherd cross), now 10 years old we've had him for 6 months from the SSPCA. I always have him on lead when out in a public place (i.e. local fields/open areas of land) as his recall is so bad (we know this from training class in a private, secure area). I also know that he doesn't like to be approached head by a strange dog when he's onlead. For this reason I tend to keep him away from other dog walkers where possible (though sometimes with confident owners, and with their permission & cooperation I am able to introduce him to other dogs).

There have been two instances where he has been involved in a fight having been approached by other dogs who were off lead. I put him in the sit position, called to the other owners to recall their dogs - they were unable to do so, the other dogs came face to face with him and a fight ensued.

They (unsurprisingly) blame me for not controlling my dog. I am of the opinion that if they could recall their dogs, or had kept them on a lead then there would have been no fight.

The Police were involved by the other owners and I've been "offered some advice" by the police.

I accept the points raised by the officer that came to see me, but at the same time I maintain that I'm doing my best to keep him under control (I'll repeat that he's never off lead in public), and that the the other owners are at least equally as responsible as myself for the dogs fighting as they had no control over their dogs.

What would your views be, and could my dog be considered to be dangerously out of control when he's on lead?

 

[dan_bo]

I'm not a copper but it sounds to me like you're doing your job right with keeping tohe dog on a lead.

 

[Kirstie]

Do you have any idea why your dog has that hang up? About being approached from the front? Has anything happened to him in his past?

 

[simon_brooke]

What would be the definition of a dangerously out of control dog?

A brief outline:

I have a big dog (Husky/Shepherd cross), now 10 years old we've had him for 6 months from the SSPCA. I always have him on lead when out in a public place (i.e. local fields/open areas of land) as his recall is so bad (we know this from training class in a private, secure area). I also know that he doesn't like to be approached head by a strange dog when he's onlead. For this reason I tend to keep him away from other dog walkers where possible (though sometimes with confident owners, and with their permission & cooperation I am able to introduce him to other dogs).

I'm not a police officer or a lawyer!

Putting a husky on a collar and lead is dodgy (you probably know this) They're strong enough to do themselves serious damage if restrained just by a collar. You need a full harness for the dog.

Huskies are lovely dogs, but they are definitely not docile, and are powerful enough to kill other dogs. They also, of course, need a huge amount of exercise and very much like to run off the leash. It sounds as if you're doing the best you can - keep him harnessed when near other dogs, let him off only on private ground. If he were showing any signs of being dangerous to people I'd say put him down, but if he's just responding to provocation from other dogs, then in my opinion that's their owners responsibility.

 

[MichaelM]

Do you have any idea why your dog has that hang up? About being approached from the front? Has anything happened to him in his past?

He's about 10 years old, we've had him for 6 months. I was given very little information about his past other than he doesn't like Staffies. One of the dogs involved was a SBT, I called to the owner to recall her dog but she followed behind her SBTand didn't/couldn't call her dog back.

I'm not a police officer or a lawyer!

Putting a husky on a collar and lead is dodgy (you probably know this) They're strong enough to do themselves serious damage if restrained just by a collar. You need a full harness for the dog.

I appreciate what you're saying and I have used a full harness - but found that this gave him a better ability to pull. The attachement point for the harness is around the shoulder area and this gives the impression of him being further away (from me). I use a collar and/or a half choke.

Huskies are lovely dogs, but they are definitely not docile, and are powerful enough to kill other dogs. They also, of course, need a huge amount of exercise and very much like to run off the leash. It sounds as if you're doing the best you can - keep him harnessed when near other dogs, let him off only on private ground. If he were showing any signs of being dangerous to people I'd say put him down, but if he's just responding to provocation from other dogs, then in my opinion that's their owners responsibility.

He's 10 and has bad arthritis in his hips and loose ligaments in his shoulders, we gve him moderate exercise, take him to hydrotherapy and he's on 40mg of metacam a day.

With people he is the most docile, laid back, smiling dog you could meet. Absolutely no concerns there.

 

[Panter]

As above, I'm not a policeman or lawyer but I don't possibly see how you can be at fault.

My old dog was a large, rescue dog and it took a long time to train him to come back on call.
He loved other dogs and was once attacked because he rushed over to greet an aggressive Alsation that was on a lead. That was my fault, not the other dogs owner.
After that we always made damn sure that he couldn't rush over to an unknown dog as they might not be safe.

I always found it immensely irritating when we very first got him, just how many out of control dogs would run over and pester him. He was soft as butter and would never fight but as a newly aquired rescue dog, we didn't know that.

 

[Crankarm]

I'm not a dog fan and believe if we must have dogs they should all be labradours. However in the circumstances you describe you seem not to be at fault in comparison to the other dogs who were off lead and whose owners could not recall them. You say your dog was on a leash so therefore was technically under control. If a fight ensued was your dog simply defending himself? Also the other dog was a SBT which has a history of being an aggressive dangerous dog breed used for dog fighting. I would say if the police were subsequently involved they have not actually seen the incident and as usual have totally misjudged the situation. The plods are not that bright. The Dangerous Dogs Act was enacted to principally protect people although it was a very badly drafted piece of legisaltion.

I would say you are doing everything you should given the behaviour you say your dog exhibits. If you feel a muzzle would make a difference then perhaps this is something you should consider when the dog is out and about in public.

I would go back to plod and ask the reasons that you were given advice about your dog and what action was taken wrt the other dogs and their owners which were off their leads and aggressive. Yours was on it's lead.

 

[HLaB]

Only my opinion but it sounds like sour grapes from the other owners, I take it their dogs lost the fight. If they didn't want their dog to get involve with another dog that was on a lead, their dog should have been on a lead too.

 

[spandex]

Going by what I know from having my dogs and speaking to the Police and RSPCA is. If both dogs are off the lead it is no ones fault, If both dogs are on the lead they should not be fighting, If one is off the lead and one is on the lead it is the fault of the dog that is not on the lead.

 

[Jim_Noir]

Sorry, someone called the police because two dogs got in to a fight? And the police didn't have anything better to do that day?

You are doing all the right things, I'd add in that when the strange dog approches get your dog to turn around so the strange dog has your dogs arse in it's face so it can have a good old sniff.

+1 to what spandex says, the owner with the dog off the lead was the one not in controll

 

[MichaelM]

Some interesting replies as when discussing this with the police officer, I maintained that as far possible I had my dog under control. The police told me that I didn't have him well enough under control if it was possible for him to fight another dog. And then we went around in circles with me asking what defines an under control/dangerously out of control dog and repeating that if the other owners had exercised any control at all that there would not have been a fight in the first place.

I was also told that during the second fight (not sbt), the person walking the dog was not the owner (it was a professional dog walker), and the reason the dog did not respond to recall was that it was hard of hearing. At which point I sarcastically asked "and you think I'm being irresponsible?"

I do try, though it's not always possible, to turn away and escape.

I suspect the reason the police were then involved was that both the other dogs had to go to the vet and incurred a bill (it wasn't immediately obvious at the time), I had to take mine as he was kicked in his hips by the dog walker (for which I incurred a bill). Both parties believe I'm liable for the vets bill. I may have been willing to discuss paying half had I been approached (I'm well insured on the dog front), but having had the police involved and been wound up the wrong way I refuse to consider contributing anything at all.

I just keep him away from other dogs and walk early in the morning/late in the evening now so as to avoid giving anyone any reason to complain at all.

 

[Piemaster]

Looks to me like you've taken reasonable steps to be in control of your dog.
Turn the argument around. On two occasions your dog has been attacked by an uncontrolled off the leash dog. Wonder if the police would have taken the same action if you had reported it?

 

[on the road]

I'm not a copper but it sounds to me like you're doing your job right with keeping tohe dog on a lead.

No, you're doing a bad job by keeping him on the lead all the time. When other dogs go up to him, because he's on a lead he feels threatened because there's nowhere for him to go, a bit like being pinned in. You need to learn to trust him off the lead, all dogs need their freedom. Maybe take some treats with you, then he'll come back to you.

A police officer is not the right person to ask, unless they are dog owners too, or unless you want to know something on a point of law.

I bet it your dog that growls first (because it is pinned in), and then the other dogs react to that.

Dogs that are always on the lead never get to learn how to socialise.

 

[stoatsngroats]

I just keep him away from other dogs and walk early in the morning/late in the evening now so as to avoid giving anyone any reason to complain at all.

This is a shame -you're having to take evasive action on walking times because of the possibility of an ensuing dogfight.

Could you use a muzzle? I know that it's not ususally accepted by the dog, but it would allow some integration without any harm being done. Also, I'd make your dog lie down......it gives an extra second or two to prevent a fight.

I think that you're dog is under control, upto the point where he attacks - that is preventable by the other dogwalkers if they choose, by using a lead.

No lead - no control.

 

[Crankarm]

Some interesting replies as when discussing this with the police officer, I maintained that as far possible I had my dog under control. The police told me that I didn't have him well enough under control if it was possible for him to fight another dog. And then we went around in circles with me asking what defines an under control/dangerously out of control dog and repeating that if the other owners had exercised any control at all that there would not have been a fight in the first place.

I was also told that during the second fight (not sbt), the person walking the dog was not the owner (it was a professional dog walker), and the reason the dog did not respond to recall was that it was hard of hearing. At which point I sarcastically asked "and you think I'm being irresponsible?"

I do try, though it's not always possible, to turn away and escape.

I suspect the reason the police were then involved was that both the other dogs had to go to the vet and incurred a bill (it wasn't immediately obvious at the time), I had to take mine as he was kicked in his hips by the dog walker (for which I incurred a bill). Both parties believe I'm liable for the vets bill. I may have been willing to discuss paying half had I been approached (I'm well insured on the dog front), but having had the police involved and been wound up the wrong way I refuse to consider contributing anything at all.

I just keep him away from other dogs and walk early in the morning/late in the evening now so as to avoid giving anyone any reason to complain at all.

Sorry did I read correctly that your dog was kicked in the hips by the other dog walker? Perhaps you should make a complaint of criminal damage against the other dog walker to the police?????

Are you giving the full facts here as the obvious and reasonable point of view is that you and your dog are the wronged party here? I would have thought that even a police officer could at least see this whether or not they have better things to occupy their time with?

Well I would wait to see what happens. If the other owners want you to meet their own dog's vet's bills as they believe your dog is the cause of their own dogs injuries then let them sue. On the facts as you present them here you are not at fault.

Who owns the land on which your dog was when the alleged incident took place and are there any warning signs such as "All dogs must be kept on a lead"? It is a civil matter not a police matter if they want you to pay for their vet's bills. If you are insured, as you say you are, when a letter of claim arrives then pass it to your insurers making it clear you dispute these claims for the reasons you give here. Did you give the other dog owners your name and address or did the police request it and have then forwarded it to them? Perhaps you should make a claim against them for your vet's bill for injuries your dog sustained.

Given the facts you state I can't see how any reasonable person can arrive at a conclusion that you are at fault. Were there any witnesses?

In future I would carry a video camera when you go to areas where other dogs are on the loose.