Are we on the slippery slope?

[Fastpedaller]

@Fastpedaller - your daughter's colleagues are incorrect here. As someone who does a lot of investigations and holds meetings regarding student submissions her university's regulations are likely to have an academic integrity process.

That means there is likely to be a viva held where the student is invited to defend whatever piece of work they have submitted. I chaired one this week. Given I'm public about where I work it's not appropriate for me to state the outcome.

It's academic who, imho, can't be bothered with the effort that are simply passing / failing the work AND giving us a bad name. She's right to stand her ground and defend the grades given.

Another example.... A student was shadowing various staff for several weeks as part of her training. She was repeatedly cautioned because of inappropriate comments she had made in the presence of patients. Four members of staff met with the student's Uni representative (with the student present) and unanimously gave the opinion that the student needed more training and hadn't met the required standard. The Uni rep refused to accept the situation and said the student should continue. It would seem some of the Unis are attempting to retain any student because the unis are struggling financially? My Daughter has refused any future students from this particular Uni (this was the 3rd with poor performance/attitude). No wonder the NHS is struggling.

 

[DCLane]

@Fastpedaller - it's more an Office for Students aspect, given there is a percentage target for continuation, i.e. passing the year / completing, for students. If any year of any course falls below that percentage, and it's a high one at 75%, and all aspects of the university are under investigation.

As a result of a government target there is pressure to pass everyone. Pass rates are under scrutiny, rather than the students and staff, with those responsible for marking questioned when pass rates fall below a certain level. As a result it's easier to give a bare pass mark than fail a poor / questionable piece of work.

Me? I prefer to challenge the questioners and demonstrate what I've delivered, together with how standards are upheld, but that can be tiring.

Just passing them is a short-term approach which will come back to bite those who just give a grade. Students learn which institutions are just handing out grades, we as academics know and graduates don't get decent jobs. There's a subsequent graduate survey which also has a government target for graduates being in a graduate-level role: some of those institutions haven't a hope of meeting that target.

 

[Dadam]

The largest of many issues with generative AI is that it's constantly scouring the internet for content, and the content available is increasingly AI generated in the first place. So the slop is being recycled and used to generate more slop. It's pissing in it's own well so to speak.
I'm not anti AI by any means. My employer is working with the NHS on applications like early diagnosis of serious conditions from radiology images and pathology slides. It doesn't replace the skilled clinicians, it can screen far more people than manual processes and allows more efficient use of the time of experienced clinical staff. Instead of spending 99% of the time looking at clear/normal images, they can target the ones which are identified as possibly cancerous.

 

[Fastpedaller]

The largest of many issues with generative AI is that it's constantly scouring the internet for content, and the content available is increasingly AI generated in the first place. So the slop is being recycled and used to generate more slop. It's pissing in it's own well so to speak.
I'm not anti AI by any means. My employer is working with the NHS on applications like early diagnosis of serious conditions from radiology images and pathology slides. It doesn't replace the skilled clinicians, it can screen far more people than manual processes and allows more efficient use of the time of experienced clinical staff. Instead of spending 99% of the time looking at clear/normal images, they can target the ones which are identified as possibly cancerous.

I'm also not anti- AI....... If tech is used in a beneficial way (as the example above), that is great. My concern is that 'basic skills' will be lost along with a huge dis-benefit. Going back to an example cited earlier "calculators used in exams" can indeed put focus on the method required to achieve the answer (beneficial), but if the operator has no basic numerical skill, where is the benefit? Another example (from many years ago) a work colleague of mine, during his Phd studies, was assisting a student who had arrived at an answer for an object's speed. (n.b. I don't recall the exact details) My colleague asked the student to check the figure, and the student didn't change it, despite the strong hint. It was faster than the speed of light, and when this was pointed out, the student seemed mystified and responded with a blank expression, and stated that was the calculated speed. Logic bypass.

 

[gbb]

If my experiences in industry are anything to go by, they will soon get sussed and outed. There's no time for non performers, no one will carry you. They will get (hopefully) everything thet deserve..which is nothing, equal to the amount of effort they put in.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Not on the topic of AI, but exams. One of the hardest exams I ever sat was an open book maths exam. Any books you liked. Calculators too probably, I don't recall.

 

[Fastpedaller]

If my experiences in industry are anything to go by, they will soon get sussed and outed. There's no time for non performers, no one will carry you. They will get (hopefully) everything thet deserve..which is nothing, equal to the amount of effort they put in.

I'm confident you are correct. Big issue though is that if student 'progress' through the exams by using AI (maybe marked by AI, which schools are suggesting) we'll get the 98% achievers (who may know nothing?) getting the college/uni places, and other students at the 70% level who haven't used AI being sidelined.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Another example.... A student was shadowing various staff for several weeks as part of her training. She was repeatedly cautioned because of inappropriate comments she had made in the presence of patients. Four members of staff met with the student's Uni representative (with the student present) and unanimously gave the opinion that the student needed more training and hadn't met the required standard. The Uni rep refused to accept the situation and said the student should continue. It would seem some of the Unis are attempting to retain any student because the unis are struggling financially? My Daughter has refused any future students from this particular Uni (this was the 3rd with poor performance/attitude). No wonder the NHS is struggling.

When I was a teacher I was talking to the Head of Department at another school
He had had a trainee teacher on their school placement
The idea is that they observe a few lessons then over the space of a term they gradually start taking the lessons under supervision and end up taking them alone - but with help available if necessary
Basically by the end they should be operating as a proper teacher

Well this bloke never go past the supervision part of it - he had very few lessons where the teacher did not have to intervene
as a comparison when I did the same thing - I was actually under this Head and school - I was basically taking the lesson with no interruptions by the 3rd or 4th week - not perfectly but I was OK

This guy just didn;t get it and they felt he was actually NOT SAFE to be left alone with a class

But when they gave a grade 5 for his placement - 5 being the lowest grade - then the University did everything they could to get them to change it to Grade 3 - just a pass
With a 5 they would have had to fail him overall - with a 3 they could give him a pass

eventually the school agreed - with I suspect some quid pro quo - as long as the University promised that any reference would be terrible so no school would employ him

but the University clearly needed the pass - and could not have a single student failing the course for any reason other than dropping out of their own accord

 

[Joey Shabadoo]

I can probably get away with admitting I cheated on my Chemistry Higher 40 years ago. Before the exam I went over the coursework repeatedly for days. Oh the shame!

 

[gbb]

I can probably get away with admitting I cheated on my Chemistry Higher 40 years ago. Before the exam I went over the coursework repeatedly for days. Oh the shame!

You damn fool, when will people ever learn

 

[Profpointy]

I can probably get away with admitting I cheated on my Chemistry Higher 40 years ago. Before the exam I went over the coursework repeatedly for days. Oh the shame!

Having got a rather unexpexted A in O level history by writing down and learning a side and a half of A4 of events and dates, I found I needed about 8 pages of notes for A level chemistry which was a bit more work, albeit I really liked chemistry so it wasn't that much od a slog

A level maths was more about doing a lot of practice rather than learning, and A level physics was pretty much a freebie as I was doing "double" maths. I think the easiest of my papers was the S level physics (an extra paper over and above the A level for swotty kids which would supposedly impress Oxbridge etc). The questions were easier than for A level applied maths and you only had four instead of seven !

Regretfully I rather lost interest in university and did extremely poorly; "peaked too early" as it were. Hey ho