Armstrong charged and banned

[Chuffy]

Yes they are. As I said, It was an article written by Ashenden that I read it in. Or am I misunderstanding you?

No, you're right. I just don't have your forensic eye. I was making a logical assumption.

 

[yello]

On the subject of Ashenden, he said that he hasn't actually seen the Armstrong data that USADA have. Now either he's playing with words or he's not one of the experts in the USADA case. That would surprise the hell out of me given his standing and experience but it makes sense if you consider that Ashenden is pretty much on record as saying 'Armstrong doped' from having reviewed Armstrong blood data before. USADA may not want to risk having a witness who's testimony can be called into question despite their expertise in the field.

 

[User169]

Oohhh!!!! Pots, kettles and black. What came out at the Landis arbitration was some of the shoddiest labwork I have seen courtesy of LNDD. If they had been a medical diagnostics company the regulatory authorities would have shut them down.

Fair enough. I'll have to take your word for it, and i've no doubt you're an expert in the field.

Btw,would the landis you're talking about be the one who conceded that he'd been doping all along?

 

[ufkacbln]

Saying it is 'unacceptable' doesn't help here. It's like people asking for 100% certain proof of some hypothesis. There will always be false positives and false negatives in any test. The only question is what chance of each there is and what chance on each side one is prepared to accept for both the specific and wider purposes of the test. And if you are saying 'no chance', then you are really saying 'no testing'.

If I have problems going to the loo then at my age there is a chance I have a prostate problem. So I have a blood test that shows I have advanced Prostate Cancer, and undergo radical surgery and chemotherapy...................... then get told it was a false positive and all of that was unnecessary?

Is that acceptable?


False positives occurring means that the test itself is not fully valid as evidence and needs to be backed up by ther evidence and should NOT be accepted as unequivocal evidence

 

[Flying_Monkey]

False positives occurring means that the test itself is not fully valid as evidence and needs to be backed up by ther evidence and should NOT be accepted as unequivocal evidence

You appear to misunderstand the nature of evidence. There is no such thing as evidence being 'fully valid'. It is still evidence. It may or may not be conclusive evidence. It may or may not be enough according to the rules of any given organisation. It would not be in itself be enough in most courts of law. But I am sure there is more evidence, and of more than one type, here than just one test result...

 

[Red Light]

Fair enough. I'll have to take your word for it, and i've no doubt you're an expert in the field.

Btw,would the landis you're talking about be the one who conceded that he'd been doping all along?

No Landis fought it and lost before he fessed up. But that's nothing to do with the shoddiness of LNDD's work. The superficial signs are in the way information leaked out into L'Equipe before anyone had been notified but their technical operating procedures were even more lax than their information handling procedures. "We made it up as we went along" would not be an unfair summary.

 

[ufkacbln]

You appear to misunderstand the nature of evidence. There is no such thing as evidence being 'fully valid'. It is still evidence. It may or may not be conclusive evidence. It may or may not be enough according to the rules of any given organisation. It would not be in itself be enough in most courts of law. But I am sure there is more evidence, and of more than one type, here than just one test result...

Not at all.... one of the cornerstones in this case is the results of tests carried out and allegedly showing that EPO was used... discrediting that evidence to the point where it is disallowed is not going to be that difficult

 

[marinyork]

Not at all.... one of the cornerstones in this case is the results of tests carried out and allegedly showing that EPO was used... discrediting that evidence to the point where it is disallowed is not going to be that difficult

Ah yes. People don't like the 'non-analytic evidence' so demand that it must be based on tests. When you cannot construct such a test to your liking instead of relying on the other stuff as well, it's all thrown out of the window. Sounds a bit convenient logic to me.

And there's an awful lot more to decision theory than hypothesis testing. That's the whole point!

 

[Chuffy]

Not at all.... one of the cornerstones in this case is the results of tests carried out and allegedly showing that EPO was used... discrediting that evidence to the point where it is disallowed is not going to be that difficult

No. The only EPO test against LA is the retrospective tests carried out on his 99 samples. I can't see that being any part in USADA's evidence. The cornerstone in this case is going to be the additional blood tests backed up by eye witness testimony from team mates.

 

[lukesdad]

No. The only EPO test against LA is the retrospective tests carried out on his 99 samples. I can't see that being any part in USADA's evidence. The cornerstone in this case is going to be the additional blood tests backed up by eye witness testimony from team mates.

Another house of cards then ?

 

[Chuffy]

Another house of cards then ?

What, like the whole LA myth? Please do read what Yello posted about the 'most tested' lie. As someone else said, he isn't even the most tested American called Armstrong.

 

[Noodley]

Can someone just poke me with a stick when he is found guilty of something? Many thanks. I have no preference as to what he is found guilty of.

 

[Chuffy]

Can someone just poke me with a stick when he is found guilty of something? Many thanks. I have no preference as to what he is found guilty of.

Guilty of being a complete daffodil. I'm the judge. SENTENCED!

 

[Stig-OT-Dump]

Is it possible that the 'missing' 240+ tests were those carried out by his own medical team to check that his haematocrit levels or for other doping markers? Or would that imply a pass mark and hence a risk of failure?

 

[Chuffy]

Is it possible that the 'missing' 240+ tests were those carried out by his own medical team to check that his haematocrit levels or for other doping markers? Or would that imply a pass mark and hence a risk of failure?

The 'most tested' line that he has deployed for many years (it's the fan's No 1 line of defence) clearly implies that it's testing by race organisers/UCI. Self-testing by Ferrari etc, which they would have to do for precisely the reasons you state, DOES NOT COUNT.