ASLs

[Alex321]

No, there is a choice. The regulations were changed (in 2016 I think) so currently cyclists may enter the ASL from any point. You should overtake on the right as normal if the cycle lane is dangerously skinny.

Agreed. I did exactly that on Yesterday's commute home at ne point.

I also had one where a car had stopped entirely within the ASL area, which is quite unusual in Cardiff IME.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Impossible for me to know if motorcyclists would use them, as they're always blocked by a Wilmslow Panzer occupying the box whose driver is posting on Facebook whilst inching forwards impatiently over the forward stop line.

If they did, it wouldn't bother me.

I don't have any truck with this "Everyone Must Obey The Law" stuff; the law should be enforced proportionately, and cyclists ire reserved for those whose actions actually cause a problem. Like the above mentioned Wilmslow Panzer driver.

 

[Alex321]

How do they help? They seem utterly pointless, always with motorists of some size in, with no traffic police or (more likely) red light cameras to enforce them.

Give me a cycleway bypassing the lights every time. Lights are because motorists never give way unless required to.

Obviously, I can't speak for where you are, but I rarely see motorists in them in Cardiff - the one yesterday was unusual, and even then was just one out of about half a dozen junctions I used which have them.

They DO help, quite a lot here.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Give me a cycleway bypassing the lights every time.

Intruigued by this.

All lights and roundabout bypassing cycleways I've ever come across involve waiting twice rather than once (central reservation), and dismounting or at least wiggling around multiple 90 degree bends. I wouldn't dream of ever using one.

Are there good examples of such?

 

[Dogtrousers]

This is not unlike the situation back in the 1930s when the Govt. of the time wanted to introduce separate cycle lanes with the spate of new roads that were being built up & down the country. The CTC really kicked off at the idea of separating cycles and cars so it never happened.
Given today's cycle path / lane situation, ironic isn't it - ?

Yes but imagine if they had introduced lots of separate cycle lanes in the '30s.

They would nearly all have been eaten by road-widening schemes in the '60s and '70s. The few that remain would have been unmaintained since the '30s other than to have some cursory bike symbols painted on them.

 

[mjr]

Obviously, I can't speak for where you are, but I rarely see motorists in them in Cardiff - the one yesterday was unusual, and even then was just one out of about half a dozen junctions I used which have them.

They DO help, quite a lot here.

As I asked: how do they help? Even when not occupied by motorists, most ASLs encourage an iffy overtake of the lead motorist and then leave you in the firing line when the lights change.

All lights and roundabout bypassing cycleways I've ever come across involve waiting twice rather than once (central reservation), and dismounting or at least wiggling around multiple 90 degree bends. I wouldn't dream of ever using one.

Are there good examples of such?

A few. Nowhere near as many as there could be. Bypassing lights with no arm left of your exit are simple, hopefully obviously. Beyond that, I find most straight-ahead cyclist bypasses convert one or two compulsory stop lights into two give-ways or advisory (toucan) stop lights, although I feel the compulsory cyclist-only stop lights popularised by TfL and now Greater Manchester's Cyclops junctions are a recent backwards step.

I would agree that wiggles are too common. This is an argument I feel we have recently won with adoption of the Cycle Design Vehicle in two design manuals but it will take years to replace the bad old ones, quite apart from trying to get some refusenik wannabe-motorway-designers in councils to update their habits.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Yes but imagine if they had introduced lots of separate cycle lanes in the '30s.

They would nearly all have been eaten by road-widening schemes in the '60s and '70s. The few that remain would have been unmaintained since the '30s other than to have some cursory bike symbols painted on them.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...en-1930s-cycleways-could-transform-uk-cycling

There's one in South Manchester I drive past occasionally. Very wide, completely separated from road but used for car parking, and (fatal to being useful IMO) you need to give way to every side road. Can't find a link to it, sorry.

 

[mjr]

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...en-1930s-cycleways-could-transform-uk-cycling

There's one in South Manchester I drive past occasionally. Very wide, completely separated from road but used for car parking, and (fatal to being useful IMO) you need to give way to every side road. Can't find a link to it, sorry.

That could be fixed with paint and CCTV parking enforcement cars if there was the political will.

The two 1930s cycleways I know in Norfolk were not lost to road widening. One (A47 Swaffham-Dereham) was lost to neglect and overgrowth, with a few short bits converted into lorry laybys and service roads. The other survives to this day, alongside the ex-A11 London Road through Hethersett and Wymondham, but one section was lost I don't know how, probably overgrowth, and was rebuilt on a new line recently. In both cases, widened modern sections of road cut a new route through the landscape in preference to the bendy historic route. The new 1970s-90s roads have no cycleways worth the name (I think one has a shoulder with bike symbols painted in it) and at least one elite cyclist was killed on them.

There are many ways it could have played out if CTC had taken a different approach. Some better and many worse.

 

[Sterlo]

They've just finished some new traffic lights on my way to work with a set of cycling lights at eye level which change to green a few seconds before the main ones, obviously designed to give the cyclist a slight head start. My issue is, it's a 3 way junction with the opposite direction changing at the same time. I noticed this morning that the opposite side seemed to set off at the same time as the cycling on my side (I was driving by the way), so what will happen when (not if) someone realises this and sets off to a a right turn across the cycle lane, when they know they will have a few seconds to beat the cars setting off. I think it's an accident waiting to happen. I'll keep you informed!

 

[roubaixtuesday]

That could be fixed with paint and CCTV parking enforcement cars if there was the political will.

Not sure about the paint bit. There's no way I'd trust cars to give way to a cycle lane due to road markings if I was riding across a side road on one. I'd end up slowing right down at every junction. Actually, of course, I'd just stay on the road and avoid the extra hassle, effort and danger. The only way such could work is with a raised cycleway forming a road hump on the road, as well as paint, I think? But you clearly know much more about this stuff than I do.

 

[GetFatty]

Don't like ASLs and don't think they should exist. I don't believe they make it safer for a cyclist than the cyclist would be if they behaved like a car in the first place.

 

[mjr]

Not sure about the paint bit. There's no way I'd trust cars to give way to a cycle lane due to road markings if I was riding across a side road on one. I'd end up slowing right down at every junction. Actually, of course, I'd just stay on the road and avoid the extra hassle, effort and danger. The only way such could work is with a raised cycleway forming a road hump on the road, as well as paint, I think? But you clearly know much more about this stuff than I do.

Trusting cars to give way and slowing down when passing side roads is an interesting one. If you just stay on the road/carriageway, the only thing stopping a nobber jumping out is paint, normally, although I guess there is at least a chance that you will have a following motorist who the nobber won't want to be hit by. Why else should paint work for a carriageway and not a cycleway?

I don't really trust cars to give way, so I approach any junction at a speed and distance where I should be able to make an emergency turn to avoid a collision or at least minimise it if an approaching motorist jumps out. That habit has saved me at least twice that I can recall, one at a mini-roundabout with no cycleways involved.

Humps to slow crossing vehicles would be better, of course.

Don't like ASLs and don't think they should exist. I don't believe they make it safer for a cyclist than the cyclist would be if they behaved like a car in the first place.

I don't know about you @GetFatty but I have no intention of becoming 2.2m wide and 4m long, so I will never be able to behave like a car! I use a smaller, lighter, less damaging and more efficient vehicle, so I agree with laws that encourage and prefer us. I don't like ASLs because they are usually the cheapest, least controversial and least useful junction treatment, used by highways authorities who ignore government policy and fail to prioritise cycling and walking.

 

[Alex321]

As I asked: how do they help? Even when not occupied by motorists, most ASLs encourage an iffy overtake of the lead motorist and then leave you in the firing line when the lights change.

You are in front of the other traffic rather than alongside it. And the first second or two, your acceleration will get you away faster, so if the first car is going to turn left while you are going straight across, you are out of their path before they do so.

Without the ASL, you would be relying on them knowing you are there, and holding back until you are clear.

 

[Arrowfoot]

How do they help? They seem utterly pointless, always with motorists of some size in, with no traffic police or (more likely) red light cameras to enforce them.

Give me a cycleway bypassing the lights every time. Lights are because motorists never give way unless required to.

Yep, cycleways are better.

 

[T4tomo]

As I asked: how do they help? Even when not occupied by motorists, most ASLs encourage an iffy overtake of the lead motorist and then leave you in the firing line when the lights change.

Do you ride regularly in London? They help a lot there, allows you to get / keep ahead of the traffic , priority right turns etc etc.

they can be a bit pointless in very light traffic