Attempted Murder!

Peter Armstrong

Über Member
Well not quite...

Cycling this weekend when I stop at some lights, sat in the secondary position.
Light turns green and I set off, check over my shoulder and move to the primary position.
At this point I'm travelling with traffic, roughly 18 mph, traffic is slower because there a bit of congestion.
The car in front of me is about 1 car length away so no space for an over take, plus a pinch point is only metres away.

There are 2 lanes now, left lane is for straight on, and the right lane is for right only. Im in the left lane and the cars in the right lane are slowing down to turn.

Next thing I know a car to my right swerves at me, with the window down beep, and swearing "farking blar blar.....!"

I call his bluff and hold my position and travel through the junction, obviously he has had to stop and cut in behind me. Few yards later a the road opens up, I know he goin to overtake, I also know he is crazy so I stay in the primary so I have an escape. Here he comes again, shouting and swerving at me. I have to move as he swerves to hit me, he then gets his car in front, slams on and I brake had and pull right up to the kerb.

He then drive off.
 

edwardd67

Senior Member
Location
Renfrew
Knob!
Police should take their cars off them and make them cycle for a Day and see how they like it!!!
 

SS Retro

Well-Known Member
Location
South Lakes
Yes a male reproductive organ, some people just don't like what they see as an inferior mode of transport being more efficient in traffic.
 

cyclingsheep

Active Member
Location
Twickenham
On Tuesday night ride to Windsor some idiot in the passenger seat reached out and hit me with a bottle. I know we cyclists (generalisation) sometimes don't cover ourselves in glory but do that to nervous or less confident riders could be catastrophic. All fun and games in your steel cage until someone really gets hurt.
 
I'm well known for having a very positive outlook about my fellow human beings but have heard so many stories over the last few weeks of people doing stupid things to fellow cyclists that I'm starting to have doubts...glad you're ok
 

Drago

Flouncing Nobber
Location
Poshshire
More to the point, without a corpse or at least life threatening injuries, how does the investigating officer prove intent? That's the all too frequent difference between what we all 'know' and we can actually 'prove' beyond reasonable doubt.

In this case our offender had our hero by the balls and if he wanted him dead there's little doubt he would be dead. While I can understand the emotion that caused thread to be named as it was, the description of the incident in my mind that we have a dangerous driving offence and not an attempt violence against the person crime.
 
More to the point, without a corpse or at least life threatening injuries, how does the investigating officer prove intent? .
CCTV? Witness statements? Anyway, i thought it was up to the prosecutor to prove guilt and not the investigator. Certainly, there can be little doubt the driver in the video below intended to drive his bus in a dangerous manner to at least cause injury to the cyclist. He got 17 months for dangerous driving and causing grevious bodily harm - 17 months! What if he'd instead used a weapon designed for the purpose of killing, lets say a revolver, but only caused injury and not death. Would this not be attempted murder? The bus was used a weapon plain and simple. Maybe i'm simple but I fail to see much of a difference.

 

Drago

Flouncing Nobber
Location
Poshshire
CCTV and witness statements can not give an indication of 'intent'. I'm not defending it or saying its right, but the sole thing that seperates a crime from a non-crime, or one category of crine from another is 'intent', or mens rea.

CCTV might show what occurred but it can not demonstrate what the intent was. If, say, I ran you over and killed you the difference between murder and death by dangerous would come down solely to my men's rea. If id intended to kill you it would be murder. If I'd intended to simply frighten you but it went wrong it can never in a month of Sundays be murder as I did not have the intent. Never, ever, infinity with knobs on. And this is where the CPS have a headache - it might be a cut and dried certainty that I'd run you over, but what was my mens rea? Its not the act alone, but the motivation behind it that is the determining factor. It's often simply impossible to say in many cases, and this is why many get charged with "death by" driving offences instead of murder, not because the CPS don't care or want an easy life. It ain't good, it ain't right, it's simply the way it is.

I'm a copper with a law degree and was only commenting on the OPs account. If anyone wants my thoughts as a solicitor on any other incident I'd be happy to for £100 per hour + VAT... If you can wait the 4 years for me to retire ;)
 
CCTV and witness statements can not give an indication of 'intent'. I'm not defending it or saying its right, but the sole thing that seperates a crime from a non-crime, or one category of crine from another is 'intent', or mens rea.

CCTV might show what occurred but it can not demonstrate what the intent was. If, say, I ran you over and killed you the difference between murder and death by dangerous would come down solely to my men's rea. If id intended to kill you it would be murder. If I'd intended to simply frighten you but it went wrong it can never in a month of Sundays be murder as I did not have the intent. Never, ever, infinity with knobs on. And this is where the CPS have a headache - it might be a cut and dried certainty that I'd run you over, but what was my mens rea? Its not the act alone, but the motivation behind it that is the determining factor. It's often simply impossible to say in many cases, and this is why many get charged with "death by" driving offences instead of murder, not because the CPS don't care or want an easy life. It ain't good, it ain't right, it's simply the way it is.

I'm a copper with a law degree and was only commenting on the OPs account. If anyone wants my thoughts as a solicitor on any other incident I'd be happy to for £100 per hour + VAT... If you can wait the 4 years for me to retire ;)
Thanks for the in depth answer. It is very interesting. As for having to prove intent to satisfy a murder charge. Surely the act itself must go some way to doing this by being intentional? If someone swerves a bus (as in the video) at a cyclist so much so that contact is made and the cyclist knocked into the carriageway shortly after some verbal altercation between the two then the intention to cause harm at the very least is clear to me. It obviously was in this case as the driver was found guilty of GBH. The bus had been used as a weapon and death may have resulted. How is this different to if the weapon used was a gun or a knife or a club? Who can say if the intention was to harm only or kill outright. It should not matter one jot. If a weapon is used that could easily result in death the charge of attempted murder should be considered IMHO. Could you envisage a similar incident to the above but where a gun is used, the cyclist shot and injured and no charge of attempted murder being considered?

I'm not paying £100.00 per hour for your answer though!
 
Well not quite...

Cycling this weekend when I stop at some lights, sat in the secondary position.
Light turns green and I set off, check over my shoulder and move to the primary position.
At this point I'm travelling with traffic, roughly 18 mph, traffic is slower because there a bit of congestion.
The car in front of me is about 1 car length away so no space for an over take, plus a pinch point is only metres away.

There are 2 lanes now, left lane is for straight on, and the right lane is for right only. Im in the left lane and the cars in the right lane are slowing down to turn.

Next thing I know a car to my right swerves at me, with the window down beep, and swearing "f***ing blar blar.....!"

I call his bluff and hold my position and travel through the junction, obviously he has had to stop and cut in behind me. Few yards later a the road opens up, I know he goin to overtake, I also know he is crazy so I stay in the primary so I have an escape. Here he comes again, shouting and swerving at me. I have to move as he swerves to hit me, he then gets his car in front, slams on and I brake had and pull right up to the kerb.

He then drive off.
Similar event

Nipped the video into the Police, made statement

They considered the swearing and braking to be sufficient and he was cautioned
 
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