Ban cyclists and e-scooter riders using phones, Tory peer urges.

[icowden]

Indeed. I've no idea why special legislation was needed.
Maybe because there were loopholes that miscreants could exploit, or clarification needed around handhelds.
Maybe it was because there was clear evidence that use of phones was leading to fatalities, so it had to be made extra-clear with separate sentencing guidelines or something like that.

All of the above.

There is a useful potted history here:-
https://www.politics.co.uk/reference/mobile-phones-use-while-driving/

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

You aren't actually allowed to ride e-scooters anywhere on public property except in the areas where trials are being conducted. And as far as I am aware, in all of those trials areas, you are ONLY allowed to ride them on the roads, not on any pavements where cycles are allowed.

My first thought was RUBBISH - but I like to check these things out

First I checked the Liverpool system - no mention of only roads - but also no mention of them being allowed in cycle lanes or shared paths
which I would assume they would say if they were allowed

Also checked the manufacturers site - also no mention of the above
Then checked another area's regulation - still no mention

and also no mention of them being able to be used in any place that bikes (and legal ebikes) can go

which I found rather strange

Then I found this
Quote

Where you can use a trial e-scooter​

You may use a trial e-scooter on the road (except motorways) and in cycle lanes.


You must not use an e-scooter on the pavement.


Traffic signs with the following cycle symbol apply to e-scooters (unless a sign is displayed prohibiting e-scooters from that particular cycle way):
End Quote
from here
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e-scooter-trials-guidance-for-users#where-you-can-use-a-trial-e-scooter

But if the regulation set in place by the city (etc) then I'm not sure what the rules would be


BUT

as a lot of people are moaning about them being used 2-up, on pavement and recklessly but naff all is being done about it as trying to do so would be very manpower heavy and probably unsuccessful - the point is rather moot
probably

 

[mjr]

This is full detail of the case he was referring to:
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2002/1524.html

With some explanation around it here.
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5b46f2212c94e0775e7f273f#

Given he quoted the case reference, it was rather you being deliberately unaware rather than hem posting anything misleading or in any way wrong.

And yet, it remains irrelevant to the point made, as usual.

 

[Alex321]

My first thought was RUBBISH - but I like to check these things out

First I checked the Liverpool system - no mention of only roads - but also no mention of them being allowed in cycle lanes or shared paths
which I would assume they would say if they were allowed

Also checked the manufacturers site - also no mention of the above
Then checked another area's regulation - still no mention

and also no mention of them being able to be used in any place that bikes (and legal ebikes) can go

which I found rather strange

Then I found this
Quote

Where you can use a trial e-scooter​

You may use a trial e-scooter on the road (except motorways) and in cycle lanes.


You must not use an e-scooter on the pavement.


Traffic signs with the following cycle symbol apply to e-scooters (unless a sign is displayed prohibiting e-scooters from that particular cycle way):
End Quote
from here
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e-scooter-trials-guidance-for-users#where-you-can-use-a-trial-e-scooter

But if the regulation set in place by the city (etc) then I'm not sure what the rules would be

Yeah, having checked a bit more, use in cycle lanes does normally seem to be allowed, but not use on pavements.

BUT

as a lot of people are moaning about them being used 2-up, on pavement and recklessly but naff all is being done about it as trying to do so would be very manpower heavy and probably unsuccessful - the point is rather moot
probably

Indeed.

I see them quite often in Cardiff, and there is no trial scheme there yet, so they are ALL illegal on the road, cycle lanes or pavements (or any other public place).

 

[Alex321]

And yet, it remains irrelevant to the point made, as usual.

True, since it was not referring to a "legal trial e-scooter".

 

[Solocle]

Yeah, having checked a bit more, use in cycle lanes does normally seem to be allowed, but not use on pavements.




Indeed.

I see them quite often in Cardiff, and there is no trial scheme there yet, so they are ALL illegal on the road, cycle lanes or pavements (or any other public place).

You'll find more info here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...guidance-for-local-areas-and-rental-operators

We have allowed e-scooters to use the same road space as cycles and EAPCs. This means e-scooters are allowed on the road (except motorways) and in cycle lanes and tracks where possible.

The controls over where e-scooters can be used are split between central government and local authorities. We have made the necessary regulatory changes to allow e-scooters to be used in cycle lanes. But, to have full effect, local authorities hosting trials need to ensure that their traffic regulation orders (TROs) – either temporary, experimental or permanent – are updated and allow e-scooter use.

Since the regulatory signage hasn't changed, a failure to update TROs accordingly is questionably enforceable.

Certainly they can be used on shared use facilities where I am, according to the council:
https://www.bcpcouncil.gov.uk/News/...irst-Month-of-the-Beryl-E-Scooters-Trial.aspx

The rental scooters can be ridden on public roads in Bournemouth and Poole as well as on the expanding network of signed cycle lanes and cycle/shared-use facilities
They are not allowed to be ridden on pavements, pedestrianised areas, nor outside of the trial zone.

And I don't see that there's anything in particular stopping you from riding an e-scooter outside of a trial area. In fact, I've done just that. The trial area here is Bournemouth and Poole, but I rode one of the hire scooters out of the Dorset Council area and back into BCP.

The actual law is here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/663/regulation/5/made

 

[PK99]

Indeed. I've no idea why special legislation was needed.

Maybe because there were loopholes that miscreants could exploit, or clarification needed around handhelds.
Maybe it was because there was clear evidence that use of phones was leading to fatalities, so it had to be made extra-clear with separate sentencing guidelines or something like that.

I really don't know

The legislation created an absolute offence with no need to prove intent (mens rea) or actual hazard.

 

[Alex321]

You'll find more info here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...guidance-for-local-areas-and-rental-operators


Since the regulatory signage hasn't changed, a failure to update TROs accordingly is questionably enforceable.

Certainly they can be used on shared use facilities where I am, according to the council:
https://www.bcpcouncil.gov.uk/News/...irst-Month-of-the-Beryl-E-Scooters-Trial.aspx

So either they don't think shared use pavements are actually pavements, or they are contradicting themselves

And I don't see that there's anything in particular stopping you from riding an e-scooter outside of a trial area. In fact, I've done just that. The trial area here is Bournemouth and Poole, but I rode one of the hire scooters out of the Dorset Council area and back into BCP.

There is nothing stopping you apart from the law.

The law makes it illegal to ride them on public property outside of the trials, and each trial specifies the area which is covered.

In some cases, they actually stop the motors working if you go outside the allowed areas.

The actual law is here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/663/regulation/5/made

 

[Solocle]

So either they don't think shared use pavements are actually pavements, or they are contradicting themselves


There is nothing stopping you apart from the law.

The law makes it illegal to ride them on public property outside of the trials, and each trial specifies the area which is covered.

In some cases, they actually stop the motors working if you go outside the allowed areas.

The gov site lists:

Non-regulatory e-scooter trial controls​

In addition to the regulatory provisions above, local authorities may wish to specify their own additional requirements for trials, such as:
...
the use of geo-fencing, either to limit the trial area within a local authority or to prevent e-scooters being used in other local authorities not participating in trials, except with their agreement – this could also include ensuring e-scooters serve particular areas or address specific local transport needs

So it doesn't look like a legal requirement to me.

The border between the two local authorities isn't exactly obvious unless you know what to look for, and I actually unlocked the scooter outside of the trial area and took it back in.

Technically you could only ride your escooter on one side of the road here (the wrong one!), if it were the case that they can only be ridden in trial areas.

 

[classic33]

The gov site lists:

So it doesn't look like a legal requirement to me.

The border between the two local authorities isn't exactly obvious unless you know what to look for, and I actually unlocked the scooter outside of the trial area and took it back in.
View attachment 639564
View attachment 639565
Technically you could only ride your escooter on one side of the road here (the wrong one!), if it were the case that they can only be ridden in trial areas.

The underwriters wouldn't cover any accident outside of the trial areas. And, the MIB don't cover any of the scooters used in the trial.

The piece I'm supposed to have got wrong, despite the piece linked to, (by the person saying it was wrong), saying who was covering the trials, insurance wise.

 

[Solocle]

The underwriters wouldn't cover any accident outside of the trial areas. And, the MIB don't cover any of the scooters used in the trial.

The piece I'm supposed to have got wrong, despite the piece linked to, (by the person saying it was wrong), saying who was covering the trials, insurance wise.

I live in BCP. I work in BCP. But to get to my workplace by road, you have to travel through Dorset. The road is effectively an enclave. There is the pictured bridleway above, but the only access is probably a footpath.

And in a lot of places the only way to tell where the authority boundary is, is when the bins are out!

I don't think it would be at all a reasonable clause to only insure users in trial areas. There is no requisite signage for crossing authority boundaries - this isn't exactly international travel.

And the terms and conditions of the local scheme say absolutely nothing about it, they provide the insurance, and they let you hire the scooter outside of the trial area.

 

[Alex321]

I live in BCP. I work in BCP. But to get to my workplace by road, you have to travel through Dorset. The road is effectively an enclave. There is the pictured bridleway above, but the only access is probably a footpath.

And in a lot of places the only way to tell where the authority boundary is, is when the bins are out!

I don't think it would be at all a reasonable clause to only insure users in trial areas. There is no requisite signage for crossing authority boundaries - this isn't exactly international travel.

It is perfectly reasonable to not insure you for illegal use.

If the trial has defined boundaries (and most if not all do), then it is illegal to use the scooters outside those boundaries, and reasonable to not insure you if you choose to do so.

With some of the trials, you can't use them outside the defined boundaries anyhow, because the motors are simply disabled unless their GPS says they are within the boundaries. And with some schemes (e.g. Bristol) there are areas inside the normal boundaries where they are not permitted to be used.

And the terms and conditions of the local scheme say absolutely nothing about it, they provide the insurance, and they let you hire the scooter outside of the trial area.

Yours is unusual in allowing such usage.

Though having just looked it up, it is likely that the road you mention is covered by the scheme as it covers all of Bournemouth and Poole. I notice it does say that if you take them into an area where they are not permitted (the promenade in August, or anywhere in Christchurch), then they will gradually reduce speed (presumably the "gradually" is to prevent claims from people being thrown off by a sudden stop).

So even yours, anywhere you can actually use them with the motor is somewhere covered by the scheme.
[EDIT]
Looking at the map here, the Roman Road is clearly inside the boundaries of the trial area (just).