Box junction fines

[Piemaster]

I observe a lot of stupidity when people see flashing flights. People stopping beside traffic islands, on junctions and even before bends on solid white lines or people so desperate to do what they think is right (i.e. pull up) that they pull into a gap with half their car out, with other cars behind them now unable to progress at all!

I'm cautious in that situation when on the bike that any attention I was getting from motorists disappears. Upside is of course I'll hear sirens before anyone in their car does, so get a little more warning of it.

 

[Over The Hill]

[QUOTE 3330248, member: 45"]You should never break the law to let emergency vehicles pass. They won't expect you to.[/QUOTE]

So let us say you are just entering a box junction at traffic lights with the way clear ahead of you. As you advance you can now see down a side road and an emergency vehicle is jumping the lights and appears to be turning into the direction I want to go. Now even if I am on the box junction I would still let them out. If you apply the strict rules then I should carry on, make him stop for me and then be in his way when we are both on the road beyond the junction.
This is the reality of driving. I would also pull into a bus stop or have pulled onto the pavement in the past also both "breaking the law". It would be rather crass not to.

While motoring has a set of rules the application of those rules needs to have a degree of discretion. With the box junction automatic fine system no discretion seems to be applied.
You all seem happy for these fines to be spat out the machine but would you really be happy if you received one as the driver of the Renault in the picture? He is breaking the rule but actually not blocking anyone.

If you agree with this way of indiscriminately fining then you will be OK I assume getting a fine for every tiny road offence. The could spit out fines for driving too close, forgetting to indicate, bulb gone, crossing a solid line etc etc. Personally I don't agree with such system and also object to it being applied with no notice.

 

[winjim]

I would love to see the introduction of fines for "forgetting" to indicate. Really effing big fines. Preferably with license endorsements. Sadly I'm not sure that use of indicators is strictly speaking a legal requirement. Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[GrasB]

I observe a lot of stupidity when people see flashing flights. People stopping beside traffic islands, on junctions and even before bends on solid white lines or people so desperate to do what they think is right (i.e. pull up) that they pull into a gap with half their car out, with other cars behind them now unable to progress at all!

Just becuase they do it doesn't mean they should be doing it

 

[GrasB]

I would love to see the introduction of fines for "forgetting" to indicate. Really effing big fines. Preferably with license endorsements. Sadly I'm not sure that use of indicators is strictly speaking a legal requirement. Can anyone enlighten me?

I know this is a little controversial but TBH I feel if we banned the use of indicators on anything other than multi-lane carriage ways we'd see an improvement in traffic behaviour & road condition anticipation.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

I reckon only the Astra driver has made a clearly illegal manoeuvre and also the grey-green car (though there is an unlikely but possible cause for appeal. Were I driving the black Honda I'd probably advance a little more because that's the only way I would be able to avoid blocking all the traffic behind me. Not that it would do much good; only the Transit would get past and the car behind, which is indicating right, would block the lane all over again.

 

[jefmcg]

I'm cautious in that situation when on the bike that any attention I was getting from motorists disappears. Upside is of course I'll hear sirens before anyone in their car does, so get a little more warning of it.

except that ambulance try not to use the siren with a conscious patient in the back: tends to scare the sh*t out of them. So then drivers who glance in their rear mirror will be sooner aware than a mirrorless cyclist.

 

[Piemaster]

except that ambulance try not to use the siren with a conscious patient in the back: tends to scare the sh*t out of them. So then drivers who glance in their rear mirror will be sooner aware than a mirrorless cyclist.

Hmm..good point. Think thats were the cyclist 'spider sense' comes, in even if it's just a flash of blue reflected off something in the corner of your eye. Same in the car really, a flash in a mirror will (hopefully) then get an actual proper look in it
The siren seems to have a similar effect on motorists too though, certainly does on me. Wasn't a complaint by any means, it's a good thing that people are still decent enough to do their best to clear a route for emergency vehicles and I hope that never changes. It's probably a calmer in the emergency vehicle than it is in the ones it's trying to pass

 

[Over The Hill]

I reckon only the Astra driver has made a clearly illegal manoeuvre and also the grey-green car (though there is an unlikely but possible cause for appeal. Were I driving the black Honda I'd probably advance a little more because that's the only way I would be able to avoid blocking all the traffic behind me. Not that it would do much good; only the Transit would get past and the car behind, which is indicating right, would block the lane all over again.

This really illustrates the problem with having a system that automatically spits out a fine.
Astra - we all see his is in the wrong. Piggy behaviour. But - what if the lane he wants has been backed up to the box junction for 10 minutes?
Grey-Green car - may be at fault if the Astra was there when he entered the box but what if it was clear and the Astra cut out right in front of him.
Black Honda - You are wrong. He is supposed to wait in his land blocking all behind him until he can cross right over the box. Not pull out of his lane and wait in the box blocking oncoming traffic.
Renault- You have not even mentioned! He also gets a £130 fine as he did not clear the box fully.

Now if the Transit was an ambulance what would you do if you were driving the black Honda?

Although it is odd to say, we all break rules when we need to and sometimes the situation requires it. We cannot drive like machines so to impose a fine system in a mechanical way is very unjust.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

This really illustrates the problem with having a system that automatically spits out a fine.
Astra - we all see his is in the wrong. Piggy behaviour. But - what if the lane he wants has been backed up to the box junction for 10 minutes?
Grey-Green car - may be at fault if the Astra was there when he entered the box but what if it was clear and the Astra cut out right in front of him.
Black Honda - You are wrong. He is supposed to wait in his land blocking all behind him until he can cross right over the box. Not pull out of his lane and wait in the box blocking oncoming traffic.
Renault- You have not even mentioned! He also gets a £130 fine as he did not clear the box fully.

Now if the Transit was an ambulance what would you do if you were driving the black Honda?

Although it is odd to say, we all break rules when we need to and sometimes the situation requires it. We cannot drive like machines so to impose a fine system in a mechanical way is very unjust.

I reckon the driver could argue that as they're turning right and that the grey-green car counts as oncoming traffic, they have the right to enter the box junction...

''However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic'' HC174

 

[Over The Hill]

[QUOTE 3331398, member: 45"]There's a rule. Obey it for a reason it pay the fine. The discretion that you seek - it didn't cause a problem so I should be able to do what I like - isn't necessary.

As I said, the emergency services want expect you to break the law for them.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but when people blindly apply or worse still blindly conform to a rule without looking at the bigger picture something in me rather dies.

So you would sit in the way of an ambulance rather than pull over onto a clear pavement to let it through?

 

[Over The Hill]

I reckon the driver could argue that as they're turning right and that the grey-green car counts as oncoming traffic, they have the right to enter the box junction...

''However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic'' HC174

The junction in the pic is not a good example as it is not a full box. But I think the allowance is to move forward in your own lane into the box, wait there and then when it is clear, turn right across the road. I don't think it gives you freedom to cross over and block the oncoming traffic, just the traffic behind you. Surely the point is to not block the other directions up! The rule is there for normal phase traffic lights where the opposite traffic will also be on green and so the right turns block each other.

 

[winjim]

I know this is a little controversial but TBH I feel if we banned the use of indicators on anything other than multi-lane carriage ways we'd see an improvement in traffic behaviour & road condition anticipation.

That reminds me of the scheme in some semi-pedestrianised areas where they remove all road markings and just let pedestrians and vehicles mingle. The idea is that it removes the sense of entitlement and everybody just looks out for each other and shares the space properly. No idea if it works!

 

[Fnaar]

Sorry but when people blindly apply or worse still blindly conform to a rule without looking at the bigger picture something in me rather dies.

I'm sure that's a Bob Dylan lyric

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

The junction in the pic is not a good example as it is not a full box. But I think the allowance is to move forward in your own lane into the box, wait there and then when it is clear, turn right across the road. I don't think it gives you freedom to cross over and block the oncoming traffic, just the traffic behind you. Surely the point is to not block the other directions up! The rule is there for normal phase traffic lights where the opposite traffic will also be on green and so the right turns block each other.

I can't see the bit in law that says that.

( (2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -

(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and

(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.)
I have a right to enter the box because I'm turning right, I have a right to stop there because of oncoming traffic. The fact that 2 chumps came along afterwards, the first by driving into the box junction and blocking the nearside lane and the second (the oncoming vehicle for which I had stopped) coming to a halt directly in front of me, are factors I couldn't have been expected to anticipate.