Brixton Hill and the bus lane

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LOGAN 5

New Member
I wrote to Boris Johnson objecting to motorbikes in London's bus lanes and have been following the story in the cycle press. Over 3500 London Cycling Campaign members signed the petition so I really hope he reconsiders his decision to allow motorbikes.

Anyhow, those of you who know Brixton Hill (A23 permanent mixed use cycle/motorbike bus lane following trial) will understand what a tricky road it is. It's very busy and very fast. Down hill (going north) has some nasty pot holes, sunken drains etc. There's the usual problem of swooping taxis and a very busy multiple bus route. So where is there room to cycle down this road avoiding all the holes and managing to keep out of the way of motorbikes whizzing past between me and the traffic on the outside lane with just inches between us at 40mph?

What's the solution, sit in the gutter and take my chances with the pot holes, drains? Sit in the middle of the lane and give the bikes room to squeeze past too close at speed? Or take the line they're on eg about a foot or two inside the white bus lane marking thus avoiding the "squeeze at speed" but risk annoying them or being hit or being undertaken? Not looking forward to riding this stretch when it gets dark and/or in the wet.

I personally feel it's very dangerous to mix motorbikes and scooters in with cyclists in the bus lane. They use it as an express undertaking lane and will undertake traffic which is flowing at the legal speeds just to get past. I don't feel safe at all in this lane so come winter I'll change my route.

Anyone else cycle this stretch and have any problems? I'll mention that I'm on a slow bike and can't dominate my lane as some of you faster riders do in primary etc at 20mph+.
 

Origamist

Legendary Member
LOGAN 5 said:
I wrote to Boris Johnson objecting to motorbikes in London's bus lanes and have been following the story in the cycle press. Over 3500 London Cycling Campaign members signed the petition so I really hope he reconsiders his decision to allow motorbikes.

Anyhow, those of you who know Brixton Hill (A23 permanent mixed use cycle/motorbike bus lane following trial) will understand what a tricky road it is. It's very busy and very fast. Down hill (going north) has some nasty pot holes, sunken drains etc. There's the usual problem of swooping taxis and a very busy multiple bus route. So where is there room to cycle down this road avoiding all the holes and managing to keep out of the way of motorbikes whizzing past between me and the traffic on the outside lane with just inches between us at 40mph?

Logan, I avoid the A23 even though its more direct. I go A3 (Stockwell)and then A24 (Clapham, Balham Tooting, etc).
 

zimzum42

Legendary Member
If it's the downhill section you should be able to get up to 20mph pretty easily....

As for motorbikes in bus lanes, I have no issue with it, I don't reckon it'll be a problem for any cyclists save for those of a particularly nervous disposition, in which case riding in London maybe not recommended....
And i think it will improve things for bikers, i'm happy for them, I don't see everything from a cycling POV all the time.....
 
This is a tricky bit of road, mostly because of the potholes. I couldn't say, however, that motorcycles have made me feel less secure. I'd say that having motorcycles in the bus lane north of Brixton is an advantage - by far the greatest risk (apart from my own stupidity) is from cars turning across the bus lane, and motorcycles act as a deterrent.

I think you'd be daft to go to the left side of the lane. I'd settle for about five foot from the kerb - this is how Mrs L goes down the hill, and she's not fast.

Have you thought of using Lyham Road - taking it all the way down to Kings Avenue, then going on to Clapham North? It has speed bumps, but if you're not travelling quickly that's not a problem. It's not as steep as Brixton Hill, which makes the southbound trip easier.

Kings Avenue now has central islands, creating pinch points. Lyham Road avoids the worst of these.
 

Tynan

Veteran
Location
e4
I notice them a lot on the A11, they swerve into the buslane all the time to undertake even though its a regular bus lane, the good riders are more than fine but there's some right idiots n scooters in suits that on;y use their mirroras at best

and they tend to all bunch up at lights and block the lane which stops bikes getting to the ASL, let along the stop line

it's one more thig to watch out for. primary is no defence at all, I have them pass me doing 40 both inside and outside, can't day I like it much when I'm in primary, it means there's no position that you can stop them going past you
 

Lurker

Senior Member
Location
London
zimzum42 said:
Why would you want to stop them going past you?

Because there are times when it might be unsafe for you for a motorcyclist to get past you. Highway Code rule 163 exists for very good reasons.

Trying to deter unsafe overtaking is one of the /key/ reasons for adopting the primary riding position. It works well with relatively wide motor vehicles such as buses, taxis, HGVs and cars. Allowing relatively narrow motor vehicles - motorbikes - into bus lanes thus undermines the National Standards in cycle training.
 
it's a question of proximity and speed difference.

This motorcycles in bus lane thing is all about perception. If you're doing 12mph (Mrs L's cruising speed) and a ptw passes two feet away at 35 it's not nice. If you're doing 28mph, and the ptw is doing 32 then you have a friend. Unfortunately there are a fair few idiots on ptws - and the A11 has its fair share. Hence the CTC standpoint.

Brixton Hill is a near ideal illustration of the de-merits of allowing ptws in bus lanes - a cyclist has to steer around holes in the road, which is not comfortable if an idiot on a scooter is bearing down on you at 35. As I said above, the same road north of Brixton shows the benefits.
 

zimzum42

Legendary Member
Well, maybe I'm just immune to this kind of thing, since I get passed really close at high speed by all types of vehicles much of the time, and it doesn't bother me unless it's literally a couple of inches.

Two feet away is loads of room
 

spindrift

New Member
The HC stipulates that the space left for a CYCLIST is enough so that were the cyclist to topple over they still would not be hit. Six feet is about right. If a cyclist is in primary there is not one single bus lane in London that would be safe to overtake a cyclist in.
 

zimzum42

Legendary Member
I'm not saying 2 feet is not dangerous, I'm just saying it's par for the course in London, and Singapore for that matter!
 

Origamist

Legendary Member
zimzum42 said:
I'm not saying 2 feet is not dangerous, I'm just saying it's par for the course in London, and Singapore for that matter!

I wouldn't say 2 ft is par for the course in London or Singapore - you usually get more room than that. In KL however, 2 ft was a luxury.
 

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
2 feet isn't par for the course on my commute!!!!!!! It's very rare that anyone will overtake me that closely, and I commute a very long way from the wilds of Kent into tight traffic in the West End.
 
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