Broccoli head from Spain priced 20p in supermarket.

[mudsticks]

Aye, Charles was putting his seeds trees on a structure above the hotbed.
His thermometer was registering 50C at the core of the hotbed!
Fascinating stuff this veg growing, I wish I was into it when younger, would have learned more by now

Pre covid, I used to run three day courses alongside CD , people would spend a day at his place, a day here and a day with another medium scale market grower getting different angles on techniques and particular methodologies ..

The no dig, super thick mulch technique can work really well on smaller sites, but scaling all that up anything beyond a couple of acres becomes a big ol' exercise in 'materials handling'

I know some folks also take issue with using so much organic matter to the point that soils become 'obese' and certain nutrients get locked up .

Not sure about how great a risk that really is, and I'm pretty sure anything home grown the 'Dowders' way is still going to surpass anything you'll buy in the shops, nutrition, and tastewise ...

Right, a few more hours work then I'm having all of Sunday off >>>>>
Who knows -i might even get a ride in

 

[gbb]

And alongside the tendency towards bigness goes increased mechanisation, specialisation, leading to monocultures requiring greater amounts of fossil fuel inputs , chemical and machinery wise, spiralling upwards
.

A loss of diversity, not just biodiversity but also crop diversity, compounding the problems of monocultures .

Not to mention the loss of resilence in a system when you only have a few very large dominating players reliant on links in a long supply chain.

And longer longer supply chains, also require larger amounts of fossil fuels for transport, and refrigeration, and packaging.

Without those big fossil fuel inputs, which we're supposed to be cutting back on, the whole system is a bit cooked..

(Not to mention the reliance on 'cheap' labour)

Covid, and the 'other event' that shall not be named showed up the fragility of relying on so much imported stuff.

Businesses like mine carried on same as ever, prospered even, because we hadn't got locked into a situation dependant on so many other external inputs, our local markets remained loyal..
Keener even
.

Labour is my biggest cost, but working alongside others of like mind, in a chemical free environment, surrounded by the delights of the natural world , whilst doing skilled craft work , is now quite a lot of peoples idea of a reasonably nice way of working.

Thankfully..

Yes it's quite hard work at times, but I don't ever have to go to the gym for weight training - every day is leg and arm day..

T'internet has also opened up new avenues for smaller and medium scaled growers to market and sell direct and via local networks and growers cooperatives and thus capture more of the final sale price, enabling their businesses to prosper via the support of food concerned citizens.

I've seen a big increase in other people setting up to do that in the last ten years or so.
Those aspirant growers and farmers still struggle to gain secure access to land and the other resources necessary, but awareness is building.

Little bits of change are happening here and there, as food and how it's produced moves up the agenda , for lots of reasons.

Hopefully that will keep going, the elms scheme is supposed to be helping with all that, but there's still a lot of uncertainty surrounding all that too.

'Interesting times' to be in our line of work, I'd say...

And long may your types of business prosper i say.


The irony is, growers like yourself can sometimes sell their home grown produce cheaper than people pay at the supermarkets. We buy our potatoes from a local smallholder, he grows those, cereal crops and maybe a couple other bits but his potatoes are brilliant. He doesnt irrigate, its all as nature driven as reasonably possible and he has a big, long standing following....and hes cheaper than the supermarkets to boot.
He aslo sells eggs , fresh from another farm, theyre just eggs but because theyre fresh, theyre so much nicer, golden yellow yolks...and cheaper to boot.

 

[mudsticks]

And long may your types of business prosper i say.


The irony is, growers like yourself can sometimes sell their home grown produce cheaper than people pay at the supermarkets. We buy our potatoes from a local smallholder, he grows those, cereal crops and maybe a couple other bits but his potatoes are brilliant. He doesnt irrigate, its all as nature driven as reasonably possible and he has a big, long standing following....and hes cheaper than the supermarkets to boot.
He aslo sells eggs , fresh from another farm, theyre just eggs but because theyre fresh, theyre so much nicer, golden yellow yolks...and cheaper to boot.

Thank you, it's doing pretty well so far...
(20 years in)

My flocks benefit from all the greenness of crop aftermath..

Clear ground of weeds, and unhelpful bugs such as leather jackets.

Add to the customer 'offer' with their golden deliciousness..

And increase my businesses profitability

..

Plus we get yummy lunches

 

[Alex321]

Christain Salvesens( frozen veg suppliers and processors) on the other hand were a major transpot, logistics, storage and processing company with clout, the then largest operator of Mercedes trucks in the country with major processing facilities throughout the UK and its own distribution network. The retailers they packed for slowly eroded away the margins until it basically didnt pay...Salvesens got out the market. TBF, their sites were getting old, not energy efficient, bespoke machinery was very expensive
to replace etc etc. A lot of money needed spending, i guess the margins didnt make it worth doing.

Salvesons were one of the main suppliers of summer jobs for (16+) schoolkids when I was growing up in Grantham. I remember one year working on their packaging stocktake. It was quite an eye-opener to a naïve schoolboy, just how many "different" brands were packed in the one factory.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

Did you try your vine leaves for dolmades yet?

Oh yes, the vine in my garden is now 14 years old, plenty of leaves each season, but no grapes because it's outside.
The original plant, the one smuggled from Cyprus, must be 25 years old now, it's in a friend's greenhouse, he gets grapes.

Those aspirant growers and farmers still struggle to gain secure access to land and the other resources necessary, but awareness is building.

I attended a discussion group with South Lanarkshire Council (my area, I live just outside the boundaries with Glasgow City Council).
SLC have put in place a sustainable food strategy plan - well, they are trying, I feel they are already clogging themselves up with disjointed policies.
One of the issues that came out from that seminar was the bureaucracy around obtaining local authority permission to use their land to grow food.
For example, my small community gardening group has asked for permission to plant half a dozen fruit trees in a local disused green space: there's been only grass growing there for as long as residents can remember, it's not near any buildings.
We have asked permission to plant over 6 months ago, still waiting for an answer.
If it was up to me, I would have planted them already, but the group's committee voted against, as they live in council houses, don't want any negative comeback.
Meanwhile, we have planted fruit trees in our back gardens: strictly speaking, that is council property too, because most of the flats are council owned but we really wanted them to be accessible to all the community, not only the residents of our block.
Meanwhile (again!) said council, jumping on the COP26 bandwagon, decided to plant 60 fruit trees in a local park that could have poisoned soil, because the area used to be a damping ground for a chemical factory.
The gardening group that operates in the same park has been told by same council they are not allowed to grow food stuff in the ground least they pay for expensive soil analysis, they must grow raised beds!
On planting the trees, SLC refused to engage with local community groups, did the planting in a day, left it at that: their trees have already been vandalized.
Disjointed food action plan by this council, to say the least.
To top all this up, we have many abandoned orchards in the Clyde Valley, why not take care of them first, before planting more?
An example of a mere PR exercise, me thinks.

Pre covid, I used to run three day courses alongside CD

Aww!!!

It was quite an eye-opener to a naïve schoolboy, just how many "different" brands were packed in the one factory.

I felt the same when I attended a fishmonger course in Grimsby for Asda: what a major con, I thought, this salmon coming out of the conveyor belt for Asda is the same salmon for Marks and Spencer, they just put different packaging on it!

 

[mudsticks]

I attended a discussion group with South Lanarkshire Council (my area, I live just outside the boundaries with Glasgow City Council).
SLC have put in place a sustainable food strategy plan - well, they are trying, I feel they are already clogging themselves up with disjointed policies.
One of the issues that came out from that seminar was the bureaucracy around obtaining local authority permission to use their land to grow food.
For example, my small community gardening group has asked for permission to plant half a dozen fruit trees in a local disused green space: there's been only grass growing there for as long as residents can remember, it's not near any buildings.
We have asked permission to plant over 6 months ago, still waiting for an answer.
If it was up to me, I would have planted them already, but the group's committee voted against, as they live in council houses, don't want any negative comeback.
Meanwhile, we have planted fruit trees in our back gardens: strictly speaking, that is council property too, because most of the flats are council owned but we really wanted them to be accessible to all the community, not only the residents of our block.
Meanwhile (again!) said council, jumping on the COP26 bandwagon, decided to plant 60 fruit trees in a local park that could have poisoned soil, because the area used to be a damping ground for a chemical factory.
The gardening group that operates in the same park has been told by same council they are not allowed to grow food stuff in the ground least they pay for expensive soil analysis, they must grow raised beds!
On planting the trees, SLC refused to engage with local community groups, did the planting in a day, left it at that: their trees have already been vandalized.
Disjointed food action plan by this council, to say the least.
To top all this up, we have many abandoned orchards in the Clyde Valley, why not take care of them first, before planting more?
An example of a mere PR exercise, me thinks.

Aww!!!

I felt the same when I attended a fishmonger course in Grimsby for Asda: what a major con, I thought, this salmon coming out of the conveyor belt for Asda is the same salmon for Marks and Spencer, they just put different packaging on it!

It's frustrating when it feels like only so much lip service (pardon the pun) is being paid to these issues.

Food, and food production, health physical and mental, social care, environment, education, economy, climate care, social cohesion, general well-being, environment and family life are all so very dependant upon good food provisioning, fair access to land, and spaces to recreate and grow.

Get it right and you've got a real recipe for success..

It's been marginalised, seen as a 'nice to have' add on, after we've done all the other things..

We could do so much better.
So many individuals and groups such as yours are already doing their best, trying to make a difference.

I agree put time to maintaining what's already there, what's being done well.

Some more joined up and long-term thinking commitment, from powers that be is what's required .

Ah well, enough hobby horsing, it's Saturday night, I've drawn a bath, and a fruity red awaits...

 

[gbb]

Well, as an Asda shopper i tried the 20p broccoli. It was ok, just ok, possibly not as tasty as frozen broccoli but quite edible. Long thick stalks were cut into 6mm thick medallions and cooked with the florets, no problem.
Would i buy it again ?...meh, if it suited but i wouldnt break a neck to do it.
As a long term shopper at Asda, fresh fruit and veg in my opinion is not the best, far from it but acceptable would be the word so perhaps the broccoli follows the trend there.
It was ok, just ok.

 

[oldwheels]

I am not going to put more than my toe into this thread but it is one of the most interesting ones I have come across.
My father used compost heated beds in the 1940s and we had yellow tomatoes and all sorts of exotica for those days.
Interestingly the land he used for the market garden belonged to a Major Salvesen, a relative of the distribution company named earlier.
Sadly my deteriorating health has put paid to most of my veg gardening.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

Well, as an Asda shopper i tried the 20p broccoli. It was ok, just ok, possibly not as tasty as frozen broccoli but quite edible. Long thick stalks were cut into 6mm thick medallions and cooked with the florets, no problem.
Would i buy it again ?...meh, if it suited but i wouldnt break a neck to do it.
As a long term shopper at Asda, fresh fruit and veg in my opinion is not the best, far from it but acceptable would be the word so perhaps the broccoli follows the trend there.
It was ok, just ok.

Well, I was in Tesco today: the same 20p broccoli - same packaging, from Spain, are 65p (or 60, can't remember, but it said Aldi price match, mind how yesterday there was no 20p broccoli in Aldi?)
Now, I have bought Tesco broccoli before: is it my imagination @gbb that the Tesco broccoli tasted much fresher than the Asda 20p broccoli?
And yet, the packaging, content, country of origin on label are identical!
On the by, the 19p British carrots and British parsnips are in Tesco too now, like in Aldi.
These smaller branches of Tesco and Aldi that I have visited are an easy walking distance from several nearby residential areas. They are competitors, but the immediate area near Tesco is wealthy, the immediate area near Aldi is quite poor.
The Asda is a bit further away, a massive affair with clothing, lots of Asian and Polish foods, household stuff, a petrol station, an attached Mac Donald's.
I'll no be buying broccoli for a while, because my sprouting broccoli are sprouting but I shall keep an eye on this veg war!

 

[Reynard]

I've been keeping an eye on this thread and I've found it fascinating - and I've learned a fair bit, so bonus.

Haven't bought any broccoli for a while tbh, but as a Tesco shopper, I find the quality of the fruit and veg in the store I shop at (Ely) to generally be very good. It's rare that I end up with a lemon from the fresh produce section. I do try and stick to seasonality though, and if something's not up to scratch, e.g. "blown" cauliflowers or woody beans, I'll choose something else. I've eaten a lot of savoy cabbages this winter, as they've been very good.

But I also buy veg from a local small "hobbyist" grower who turns out excellent produce. On some things he's cheaper than Tesco e.g. kale, celeriac and squashes, on other things it's on par or a little more. But IMHO it's worth paying that premium for the flavour and lack of food miles. The gentleman in question is nearly 90, btw, although you wouldn't know it.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

I've eaten a lot of savoy cabbages this winter, as they've been very good.

Here it's been the red cabbage in Tesco, I've even pickled and fermented some, as even the yellow sticker ones were perfect quality during the winter.
20p yellow sticker veg I can understand, especially because most foodbanks do not have refrigeration or facilities to take in fresh produce.
On the by, here we are moving away from foodbanks (Scottish government plan), in favour of community fridges.
Community fridges need no referrals, are supported by Hubbub, the Co-op and Fairshare.
You know, there is some veg or fruit I don't buy, even if they are reduced: like strawberries, why buy them in December from, say, South Africa, when I get to eat my own strawberries the whole month of June, fresh, organic, no carbon footprint.
Berries I won't buy either, no matter the price. The supermarket ones are heavily sprayed. I eat my own or foraged wild blackberries, freeze some.

But I also buy veg from a local small "hobbyist" grower who turns out excellent produce.

Hopefully that will be me with my small gardening group in another couple of years
I am waiting for yet another delivery of bulk bag of compost, horse manure, and woodchips.
We had woodchips for free in the past, but it seems the free ones are never available when you need them.
Just as well I have enough cycling stuff to last me for a lifetime: couldn't afford cycling and gardening expenses at the same time
My building is due a reroofing and new rendering. This will destroy my front garden, most of the back too.
I'm trying to grow most edibles in pots away from the building, lucky I can use some communal ground away from the scaffolding.
The works have halted for unknown reasons: I hope they won't start back till the growing season has ended

 

[Reynard]

You know, there is some veg or fruit I don't buy, even if they are reduced: like strawberries, why buy them in December from, say, South Africa, when I get to eat my own strawberries the whole month of June, fresh, organic, no carbon footprint.
Berries I won't buy either, no matter the price. The supermarket ones are heavily sprayed. I eat my own or foraged wild blackberries, freeze some.

I very rarely buy soft fruit out of the UK season (April - end September) because it's tasteless. And the food miles, of course. OK, when I sticker, some bets (but not all) are off. Because I'll be the crazy woman sniffing the strawberries to check for quality, even in season. Most of a strawberry's flavour, plus our perception of its sweetness, is in its aroma, because in reality a strawberry is actually as acidic as an orange. It's something I've always done - and been looked at rather oddly for it - but was vindicated a few years ago by a very interesting BBC documentary on how we perceive flavour in food.

Had some fabulous soft fruit last summer, including some Scottish blueberries that were absolutely banging.

There's loads of places out here where I can go foraging for fruit and nuts, and I keep an eye out on the crops in my favourite spots while I'm out in the bike.

Although there are food miles and there are food miles. Stuff that's flown over is a much bigger no-no than stuff that's shipped in chilled containers. So I will pay attention to that, too...

Hopefully that will be me with my small gardening group in another couple of years
I am waiting for yet another delivery of bulk bag of compost, horse manure, and woodchips.
We had woodchips for free in the past, but it seems the free ones are never available when you need them.
Just as well I have enough cycling stuff to last me for a lifetime: couldn't afford cycling and gardening expenses at the same time
My building is due a reroofing and new rendering. This will destroy my front garden, most of the back too.
I'm trying to grow most edibles in pots away from the building, lucky I can use some communal ground away from the scaffolding.
The works have halted for unknown reasons: I hope they won't start back till the growing season has ended

Wish you were closer... I have wood and a chipper, you could have as much as you could cart away.

All I grow are tomatoes and herbs, plus I've a small selection of fruit trees and some strawberries that I struggle to get to before the slugs do... Used to grow more, but it's just me and mum and only so many runner beans or courgettes that you can eat. OK, I have a great recipe for pickled courgettes with dill and garlic, but even so...

 

[mudsticks]

Here it's been the red cabbage in Tesco, I've even pickled and fermented some, as even the yellow sticker ones were perfect quality during the winter.
20p yellow sticker veg I can understand, especially because most foodbanks do not have refrigeration or facilities to take in fresh produce.
On the by, here we are moving away from foodbanks (Scottish government plan), in favour of community fridges.
Community fridges need no referrals, are supported by Hubbub, the Co-op and Fairshare.
You know, there is some veg or fruit I don't buy, even if they are reduced: like strawberries, why buy them in December from, say, South Africa, when I get to eat my own strawberries the whole month of June, fresh, organic, no carbon footprint.
Berries I won't buy either, no matter the price. The supermarket ones are heavily sprayed. I eat my own or foraged wild blackberries, freeze some.


Hopefully that will be me with my small gardening group in another couple of years
I am waiting for yet another delivery of bulk bag of compost, horse manure, and woodchips.
We had woodchips for free in the past, but it seems the free ones are never available when you need them.
Just as well I have enough cycling stuff to last me for a lifetime: couldn't afford cycling and gardening expenses at the same time
My building is due a reroofing and new rendering. This will destroy my front garden, most of the back too.
I'm trying to grow most edibles in pots away from the building, lucky I can use some communal ground away from the scaffolding.
The works have halted for unknown reasons: I hope they won't start back till the growing season has ended

Good luck with all that Pat..

Re accessing more woodchip, I don't know how big a site you have, or how accessible , but if you register your site to receive trade waste, you can build relationships with tree surgeons and have them deliver for free what is an asset to you, and a liability to them.

I already have 'relationships' with a few tree surgeons..

So keen for extra organic matter was I that I even 'married' one.. *

*There may have been other benefits too..

Red cabbage makes the yummiest kraut - my German farm help nearly always has a big jar on the go

I very rarely buy soft fruit out of the UK season (April - end September) because it's tasteless. And the food miles, of course. OK, when I sticker, some bets (but not all) are off. Because I'll be the crazy woman sniffing the strawberries to check for quality, even in season. Most of a strawberry's flavour, plus our perception of its sweetness, is in its aroma, because in reality a strawberry is actually as acidic as an orange. It's something I've always done - and been looked at rather oddly for it - but was vindicated a few years ago by a very interesting BBC documentary on how we perceive flavour in food.

Had some fabulous soft fruit last summer, including some Scottish blueberries that were absolutely banging.

There's loads of places out here where I can go foraging for fruit and nuts, and I keep an eye out on the crops in my favourite spots while I'm out in the bike.

Although there are food miles and there are food miles. Stuff that's flown over is a much bigger no-no than stuff that's shipped in chilled containers. So I will pay attention to that, too...



Wish you were closer... I have wood and a chipper, you could have as much as you could cart away.

All I grow are tomatoes and herbs, plus I've a small selection of fruit trees and some strawberries that I struggle to get to before the slugs do... Used to grow more, but it's just me and mum and only so many runner beans or courgettes that you can eat. OK, I have a great recipe for pickled courgettes with dill and garlic, but even so...

I've really got into fermented veg of late, mainly via people coming to live and work at the farm..
It's not for want of always available fresh stuff, but the fermenting transforms the ingredients into something else again.

And it's meant to be excellent for your gut too.

Kimchis and krauts really lift even a very simple meal, and all you need in addition to the veg is a bit of salt and a few spices..

 

[CharlesF]

I don’t have any words of wisdom to add; but to say this is a very informative thread, way beyond 20p.

 

[Reynard]

I've really got into fermented veg of late, mainly via people coming to live and work at the farm..
It's not for want of always available fresh stuff, but the fermenting transforms the ingredients into something else again.

And it's meant to be excellent for your gut too.

Kimchis and krauts really lift even a very simple meal, and all you need in addition to the veg is a bit of salt and a few spices..

I love making preserves with what I can forage and pick from the garden - or what I acquire on sticker or on good offers*, for that matter. I have won many a red rosette for them at local produce / agricultural shows.

Am of Polish and German ancestry on my dad's side, so sauerkraut and pickled cucumbers were always around. Have to say, I don't possess a great fondness for them, simply because I find them waaaaaay too salty.

Although a choucroutte garni with smoked sausage and bacon generally hits the spot once in a while.

* I made some fabulous marmalade that's half Seville oranges (bought off the market) and Navelina oranges bought on a clubcard offer in Tesco. I won't say no to 59p for a net of oranges, and will usually bulk buy as they keep well in my unheated utility room. The quality of the Navelinas this year has been absolutely exceptional - there must've been a glut for them to sell it at that price. I ate a fair few of them as well as I absolutely love oranges. I've had similar good buys on Lane Late oranges. They've been good too, very "orangey" but not as sweet as last year's crop.

That's about it for good Spanish oranges for the season. The clementines around Christmas were fabulous as well - I bought, and ate, with mum's help, seven and a half kilos of the damn things...