Campagnolo RD cable pull - 2011 vs last decade?

[smiorgan]

I'm a campag fan since my first road bike had Mirage kit on it, and it always served me well.

I was aware that the pre-2000 rear mechs had different geometry to post-2000 mechs so you couldn't mix rear mechs and ergos between decades.

But since 2000 all the mechs have mostly looked the same in the last decade and I've been told that they're all functionally the same, except perhaps for the 10sp spacers for the jockey wheels. Which was good news for the 2004 Veloce levers I have (and have rebuilt twice)

Now the 2011 kit has come out and the rear mech looks different, and the campag tech manual implies that mixing 2011 mechs with 2010 (and earlier) shifters - or vice versa - is no-go.

So what's up - do campag just change the geometry every 10 years to break compatibility with old equipment?

If the geometry is different - are there any tricks to get around it, like clamping the cable to the pinch bolt slightly differently?

Should have asked this before I bought a new RD, eh.

 

[accountantpete]

Firstly I wouldn't believe what the Campy tech manual says - the translation into English can be difficult and is done by non-cycling translators!

I'd give the new RD a whirl and see if it works.

 

[smiorgan]

Firstly I wouldn't believe what the Campy tech manual says - the translation into English can be difficult and is done by non-cycling translators!

I'd give the new RD a whirl and see if it works.

Yeah, I can fit it and see how it works - the worst that can happen is a mis-shift.

The information is on page 87 of the tech manual that says you can't mix 2011 with 2010 (or 11 speed and 10 speed). It's a table, so I don't think translation comes into it. On the other hand, I could easily suspect Campy of forcing obselesence on their customers by saying you can't mix x with y, when actually it would be fine.

I know a 9sp chain fits - currently using it on another bike with friction shifters.

I was just seeking opinions on my theory - RD cage looks different, so geometry and therefore cable pull will be different and it will break the indexing when I use my old shifters. Hoping maybe for some anecdotal evidence, that's all.

 

[g00se]

What sort of shifters do you have (ultrashift, powershift/escape) etc. and which gruppo?

Cheers

 

[smiorgan]

What sort of shifters do you have (ultrashift, powershift/escape) etc. and which gruppo?

Cheers

2004 veloce 9sp - that's pre escape/QS/ultrashift AFAIK. Multiple upshift and downshift and variable trim on the FD, nice alloy brake and gear levers.

I own a Centaur 9sp short cage RD and Veloce Infinite (2007?) FD which work with the ergos, plus 2011 veloce FD and RD which I am currently using with Dia-Compe friction shifters.

 

[g00se]

As far as I can work out (I've just built a budget bike using old 9 speed stuff and I'm currently building a 10 speed) pre-escape mechanism is the same as ultrashift (certainly up to and including 2010).

Powershift is a rebranded escape mechanism.

quickshift is a shorter throw front deraillieur.

So - for the compatability chart (errata here) - your ergos should be the same as the 2010 ultrashifts.

So basically, according to that, you're b****ered

What new 2011 deraillieur do you have?

 

[MartinC]

Correct, it's a nuisance, for 2011 the 10 speed Power Shift ergos have a different cable pull to the previous US and QS ones. It's because they've changed the geometry of the rear mechs to be like the 11 speed ones - 'cos they work better and will allow a short mech to run a 29 sprocket.

 

[smiorgan]

So basically, according to that, you're b****ered

Thought so. Not the end of the world, since they work with friction shifters and if I get more ergos for the other bike I'll probably get 2011 ones anyway. But it irks me that I bought campag for compatibility with my current kit, and I won't be able to mix and match derailleurs like I thought I would.

Gah.

 

[g00se]

Well, it it's any conciliation, I've just bought some late 2000's 10 speed kit and I was about to get some 'new style' Veloce ergos. I would have happily bought some powershift 2011 10 speed levers and been b****red too...

After this thread, I'll be sure to source 2010 ultrashifts in the new style.

 

[youngoldbloke]

Correct, it's a nuisance, for 2011 the 10 speed Power Shift ergos have a different cable pull to the previous US and QS ones. It's because they've changed the geometry of the rear mechs to be like the 11 speed ones - 'cos they work better and will allow a short mech to run a 29 sprocket.

- so .... are the 'new shape' Power Shift levers all the same? I have purchased new shape, new logo, PS Veloce levers - in December 2010, to replace faulty 2007 QS Veloce shifters. (The advice label, info leaflets and guarantee with them are dated 03.2010). Sorry but find making sense of the compatability tables difficult! Am I going to have 'issues'?

 

[g00se]

My understanding is, though I may be wrong, that there are new shape 2010 levers, and new shape 2011 levers.

Another reason to think this is that you can get new shape ultra shift veloce and centaur levers but for 2011, ultra shift is only available on the high end gruppos and the lower ones only come in power shift flavour.

If anyone knows different, please let me know, before I spend the money.

I may post on a campag forum to make sure.

 

[smiorgan]

- so .... are the 'new shape' Power Shift levers all the same? I have purchased new shape, new logo, PS Veloce levers - in December 2010, to replace faulty 2007 QS Veloce shifters. (The advice label, info leaflets and guarantee with them are dated 03.2010). Sorry but find making sense of the compatability tables difficult! Am I going to have 'issues'?

The compatibility table linked above suggests that
- if you were running 11 speed last year you can mix and match 11s kit from 2010 and 2011
- if you are running 10 speed, a new FD will work with old levers and vice versa, but the RD will be the problem and you can't mix new logo with old logo. This is because the RD cage is a different shape and the 2011 levers will therefore pull a different amount of cable per click.

According to Wiggle the Veloce 2010 levers were ultra shift levers with the old logo, which would suggest you had 2011 era levers (esp if they are definitely power shift)

Note the Athena 2010 groupset - is ultra and the Athena 2011 is power shift. Derailleur cage looks the same hence the OK on the compatibility table, but the graphics are different in 2010 (sort of halfway between the current branding and the last decade).

At least, that's what the manual says. The manual also says only use campag with campag, yet some people have mixed campag and shimano (hubbub?) and got results. I understand that there was a cable routing trick to get old Dura-Ace to work with new Dura-Ace, and I thought I saw the same where someone altered the cable routing on an old Chorus mech to get it to play nice with some new levers and they claimed it worked. They got a replacement bolt with smaller diameter head and washers so the cable passed closer to the axis of the bolt. It must be possible to change the cable pull that way, although probably needs some trial and error.

 

[youngoldbloke]

The compatibility table linked above suggests that
- if you were running 11 speed last year you can mix and match 11s kit from 2010 and 2011
- if you are running 10 speed, a new FD will work with old levers and vice versa, but the RD will be the problem and you can't mix new logo with old logo. This is because the RD cage is a different shape and the 2011 levers will therefore pull a different amount of cable per click.

According to Wiggle the Veloce 2010 levers were ultra shift levers with the old logo, which would suggest you had 2011 era levers (esp if they are definitely power shift)

Note the Athena 2010 groupset - is ultra and the Athena 2011 is power shift. Derailleur cage looks the same hence the OK on the compatibility table, but the graphics are different in 2010 (sort of halfway between the current branding and the last decade).

At least, that's what the manual says. The manual also says only use campag with campag, yet some people have mixed campag and shimano (hubbub?) and got results. I understand that there was a cable routing trick to get old Dura-Ace to work with new Dura-Ace, and I thought I saw the same where someone altered the cable routing on an old Chorus mech to get it to play nice with some new levers and they claimed it worked. They got a replacement bolt with smaller diameter head and washers so the cable passed closer to the axis of the bolt. It must be possible to change the cable pull that way, although probably needs some trial and error.

Thanks for that - So it appears you can't mix the new logo levers with the old logo rear mech? My levers were made and purchased in 2010, but as they have a new logo and are Power Shift must be 2011 pattern and will not be compatible with an earlier Veloce mech? Therefore Power Shift are not compatible with early logo - pre 2011 (pattern) mechs? Is that correct?
If so I am left with a problem - I have a malfunctioning RH 2007 Veloce shifter and I have a brand new boxed unused set of PS Veloce shifters and cables. What do I do now? Try to sell them and buy some Ultra Shift 2010 levers, or buy a new 2011 style Veloce rear mech?

edit - apologies for hijacking your thread somewhat smiorgan.

 

[smiorgan]

If so I am left with a problem - I have a malfunctioning RH 2007 Veloce shifter and I have a brand new boxed unused set of PS Veloce shifters and cables. What do I do now? Try to sell them and buy some Ultra Shift 2010 levers, or buy a new 2011 style Veloce rear mech?

Here's my logic - the money you will lose on selling your levers sh + buying new old stock ones will probably not be far off the cost of a new rear mech. If it were me I'd go with new mech. Hopefully campag won't change the geometry again for some years... hopefully...

There is another option though - whether or not you sell the new shifters ask someone like Mercian Cycles if they can rebuild your malfunctioning lever. I got my Veloce rebuilt last year including new g springs and lever return spring, cost me 40 quid or so.

If you manage to get it rebuilt you could have a spare set of shifters + mech for a winter trainer etc.

There's a further option that you could just try to get your current rear mech to work with the shifters. Is it particularly nice and worth hanging on to?

 

[youngoldbloke]

Here's my logic - the money you will lose on selling your levers sh + buying new old stock ones will probably not be far off the cost of a new rear mech. If it were me I'd go with new mech. Hopefully campag won't change the geometry again for some years... hopefully...

- must admit I'm thinking along those lines. The newest compatibility chart didn't exist at the time I bought them, and the advice then was that they would work OK. Your thread has re-opened a can of worms .......

There is another option though - whether or not you sell the new shifters ask someone like Mercian Cycles if they can rebuild your malfunctioning lever. I got my Veloce rebuilt last year including new g springs and lever return spring, cost me 40 quid or so.

I looked into this before I bought the PS shifters. I understand that the QS shifters are not 'easily' rebuildable in the same way as the Ultra Shift ones, with very different internals.

If you manage to get it rebuilt you could have a spare set of shifters + mech for a winter trainer etc.

I've got Shimano Exage with D/T levers on the winter bike - now getting on for 20 years old, never had a problem - even the cables are original - might be a lesson there somewhere .....

There's a further option that you could just try to get your current rear mech to work with the shifters. Is it particularly nice and worth hanging on to?

Thought I might try that first - it is a standard Veloce Infiniti mech - good few thousand miles - at least 10K, good condition. Any tips to get it to work - if it doesn't, of course?
Of course if I replace the rear, I know I will end up replacing the front changer too - just so everything matches.

The only way to find out is to fit the new ones - unless someone has a definitive answer. But once I have done that I will have devalued the currently mint shifters, and cut the cables. I think the new rear mech might be the answer ..........