Can Scotland copy the Netherlands?

[Brandane]

Thread title is the headline of this BBC article.

Personally, I think they are kidding themselves on. There are several differences between Scotland and the Netherlands which make cycling a different proposition IMHO. Firstly, and most importantly is the weather. I live in the west of Scotland and for about 11 months of the year it rains, usually with high winds thrown in. When it's not wet and windy, it's icy (and no way are they going to grit cycle paths; they don't even bother with non bus routes currently).

Then there is the culture, or lack of it. Try riding on any cycle path in the Glasgow area just now, and see how far you get before coming across the dreaded smashed bottle. They are everywhere. On top of these 2 factors, we have hills, and lots of them compared to the Netherlands.

The way things are just now, there are few cyclists in Scotland. You have to be reasonably hardcore to want to do it, as most on here will be. But as far as being a viable method of transport for the masses? Forget it, and don't waste our money on half-cocked facilities please. It will take a miracle to get your average Scot on a bike. Public transport is far more appealing; failing that a car, or even walking. Anyway, I enjoy having the current sparse facilities pretty much to myself!

 

[Scoosh]

Magnatom makes the headlines again !

I think you will find -:
- the Netherlands get more cold and ice than Ayrshire - think ice skating on the canals !
- they also get winds just as strong - think windsurfing

Then there is the culture, or lack of it.

That is exactly the point ! Both Denmark (Copenhagen) and the Netherlands made a policy decision to change the culture of the mode of transport from cars, buses etc to cycling many years ago - in the 1960's I think.

They put money into the cycling infrastructure and the result - thus far - is what we now see. They are not finished yet, either, as the the report of the new bridge shows.

The point that the Scottish cycling campaigners are trying to get across is that it needs consistent increased investment in the cycling infrastructure, including separation of car/bus and cycle lanes in many cases, proper secure cycleparks and all the rest, before the culture and mindset will change.


Various Councils across Scotland want to increase the rates of cycling, (one could say, slightly cynically, just to improve their Green credentials ) so they give grants and encourage Cycling Proficiency courses in primary schools. All well and good - until the children want to cycle to school, at which point there is resistance from parents and friends ("It's too dangerous") and there are few, if any, secure places to leave their bikes at school.

Many surveys have been carried out asking people if they would like to cycle more. Frequently, responses are along the lines of : "Yes but I don't feel safe cycling on the roads". When the roads become safer for cycling - which requires (considerably improved) driver training/awareness/courtesy, proper cycling infrastructure as well as possible changes to the law - then there will be many more people cycling, which increases the awareness etc, cycling becomes main-stream, the nations's health improves, NHS costs go down ......

It might seem to be 'cloud cuckoo land' at the moment - but it was probably exactly the same in Denmark (Copenhagen) and the Netherlands all those years ago !

 

[GrumpyGregry]

It's easily sorted. Just elect a government that is prepared to spend €30 per head of population on cycling year-in-and-year-out for a period of about 30 years and you'll be sorted.

Good luck with finding a party prepared to put that in their manifesto.

 

[Scoosh]

Vote Magnatom, HJ et al ...

 

[GrumpyGregry]

It might seem to be 'cloud cuckoo land' at the moment - but it was probably exactly the same in Denmark and the Netherlands all those years ago !

Scoosh, don't get Copenhagen mixed up with Denmark and don't confuse Copenhagen's (declining) modal share with that of the Dutch.

 

[Scoosh]

Tks - post amended.

 

[Brandane]

They put money into the cycling infrastructure and the result - thus far - is what we now see. They are not finished yet, either, as the the report of the new bridge shows.

The point that the Scottish cycling campaigners are trying to get across is that it needs consistent increased investment in the cycling infrastructure, including separation of car/bus and cycle lanes in many cases, proper secure cycleparks and all the rest, before the culture and mindset will change.


Various Councils across Scotland want to increase the rates of cycling, (one could say, slightly cynically, just to improve their Green credentials ) so they give grants and encourage Cycling Proficiency courses in primary schools.

Maybe I am a little cynical, but with good cause! Jeez; our wonderful leaders aren't even capable of doing a proper job on the Edinburgh tram project, which is now a laughing stock. Do you really trust them to be able to find the funds, and then properly use them, to come up with a good and fit for purpose cycle network across Scotland (i.e. of the same standard as that found in the Netherlands)? Not a chance. How long have we been waiting for the completion of NCN74 between Hamilton and Douglas? My year 2000 "Sustrans Scotland" book says "The other routes..........will be coming along later and will be completed by 2005". Eight years late, so far, and it seems to have been conveniently forgotten about. And that is/should be the main route to the south and England!!

It is all smoke and mirrors in an attempt, as you say, to be seen to be green.

 

[HLaB]

Weather/ terrain etc is just an excuse, red herron IMO; many countries across Europe are colder and hillier (perhaps not wetter ) and yet have a higher mode share than Scotland (This is quite a good tool to compare EU cities), unfortunately those that do (like Holland, Switerland, Sweden, etc) have different laws and culture. I've seen some horrible examples of Farcilities across Europe in countries where the modal split is high, orbital cycle lane and cycle paths crossing at the mouth of roads, etc but they work because the laws & cultures are different. So by building Farcilities alone no IMO Scotland cant copy the Netherlands, MEP's need to look at the wider picture changing laws and culture.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

As HLab says!
Even if lots of money gets invested in cycling facilities, what's the use if you cannot cycle in a deserted town on a Sunday 7am without getting shouted at by drivers - cyclist scared of traffic will still stay scared, cars will not accept us, merely see us as pests on the road that should be segregated.
Lots of people will not take up cycling because of that.
There are loads of cycle lanes in Glasgow already: no use as often full of parked cars.
Cycle paths are strewn with broken glass.
Unless this hypothetical new network of facilities will be maintained (how? not even the roads are!) better forget it, spend the money on something else.
There are excellent cycling facilities, in fact a cycling ring road, from the west end of Glasgow leading to Dumbarton, encompassing several villages. Not a piece of broken glass to be seen after Clydebank.
But it is mostly unlit, no doubt at this time of the year slippery with icy patches.
Bet the local commuters don't use it much in winter, rather take their chances on the roads.

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

Would welcome any change towards safer roads and more cyclists. For the change to occur there would need to be a massive shift in attitude which will likely take decades, not years.

Sooner the better then.........

​

 

[Poacher]

Cheaper, easier and more effective than creating new farcilities would be the introduction of presumed liability legislation - and what do you think are the chances of that happening?

 

[Dayvo]

And there was me thinking this was about football (maybe even rugby! ).

The problem in Britain, as we all know, is the attitude of motorists towards cyclists. Unlike the continent, we are considered to be a hinderance and obstacle to the always-in-a-hurry driver. And any political party that prioritises investment in cyling-safe towns and cities before major roads linking towns (now with regard to Scotland) won't last long due to the 'motoring public' outrage.

I doubt if we in Britain will ever have the same cycling culture as the continent: we're just too bloody British.

Good to see/read about Mags, too. All expenses paid trip to Amsterdam; can't be bad.

 

[Scoosh]

Cheaper, easier and more effective than creating new farcilities would be the introduction of presumed liability legislation - and what do you think are the chances of that happening?

In the current motorist/cycling climate - remote. However, given some time and the will, allied with the sea-change in attitudes and facilities, it could happen (though I doubt I'll live to see it ).

It must be remembered that neither Amsterdam/Netherlands nor Copenhagen/Denmark went from being anti- to neutral- bike places to the paragons of cycling pleasure we now envy, overnight. It took years for them to get there and the will of the politicians, financial controllers, which led to public recognition of the benefits, to make the changes.

 

[Scoosh]

Good to see/read about Mags, too. All expenses paid trip to Amsterdam; can't be bad.

See and hear Mags in his new role as BBC Scotland's roving cycling expert and follow the 'debate' here. (7.20 - 16.45)

Pity the CTC guy was in a different studio, clearly nervous, defensive, not very convincing and the smug, smooth-tongued,skilled motoring journalist ate him for his late-night snack.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Cheaper, easier and more effective than creating new farcilities would be the introduction of presumed liability legislation - and what do you think are the chances of that happening?

When was that legislation introduced in the Netherlands?