midlife
Guru
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/catalogues/carlton-gittins-cat.html
1962 Catalina with Flyer style lugs?
Shaun
1962 Catalina with Flyer style lugs?
Shaun
Carlton Grand Prix
- Thread starter gph1973
- Start date
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midlife
Guru
Cut and pasted from somewhere..........
Early frame numbers were prefixed with a letter. They were stamped on the left side rear dropout. The following is a list compiled from various sources and is probably not 100% accurate. If anyone can provide more accurate information, it would be very welcome.
A 1939 F 1957-58 L 1963
B 1940-48 G 1959 M 1964
C 1948-52 H 1960 S 1965
D 1953-54 J 1961 T 1966
E 1955-56 K 1962 Y 1967
(This series of letters needs revision. With more frames identified it is clear that in the 1950's a single prefix letter was used for several years. In the 1960's, as production increased to meet demand, more than one letter was used per year. For example, E seems to be more relevant to 1957-1958. I need to reinterpret the data I have to try and clarify this.)
From 1968 to 1972 two numbering systems were used. The majority of models had simple numbers, up to seven digits, sometimes with leading zeros, stamped on the left rear dropout, at the top of the seat tube to the rear or under the bottom bracket. I do not have sufficient data to analyse these numbers and relate them to specific years.
Some models, the Professional and Giro d'Italia models have been identified, had a letter and numbers. I am aware of bikes with D, F and G. My initial view is that D was 1968-69, E was 1969-70, F was 1970-71 and G was 1971-72, when the numbers changed to the new scheme.
Shaun
Early frame numbers were prefixed with a letter. They were stamped on the left side rear dropout. The following is a list compiled from various sources and is probably not 100% accurate. If anyone can provide more accurate information, it would be very welcome.
A 1939 F 1957-58 L 1963
B 1940-48 G 1959 M 1964
C 1948-52 H 1960 S 1965
D 1953-54 J 1961 T 1966
E 1955-56 K 1962 Y 1967
(This series of letters needs revision. With more frames identified it is clear that in the 1950's a single prefix letter was used for several years. In the 1960's, as production increased to meet demand, more than one letter was used per year. For example, E seems to be more relevant to 1957-1958. I need to reinterpret the data I have to try and clarify this.)
From 1968 to 1972 two numbering systems were used. The majority of models had simple numbers, up to seven digits, sometimes with leading zeros, stamped on the left rear dropout, at the top of the seat tube to the rear or under the bottom bracket. I do not have sufficient data to analyse these numbers and relate them to specific years.
Some models, the Professional and Giro d'Italia models have been identified, had a letter and numbers. I am aware of bikes with D, F and G. My initial view is that D was 1968-69, E was 1969-70, F was 1970-71 and G was 1971-72, when the numbers changed to the new scheme.
Shaun
Daddybus
Über Member
- Location
- Stoke on Trent
Just to muddy the waters....this is a sun (Birmingham) I've been looking at... Exactly the same lugs & centre pull brake bar (gb side pulls fitted)
raleighnut
Legendary Member
- Location
- One of the 'Elite'
Then Raleigh bought both companies.
Illaveago
Guru
- Location
- Chippenham,Wiltshire.
Wasn't Muddy Waters something to do with Jaz? I have just had a look at my 66/67 BSA which was also swallowed up by Raleigh and it has a frame number on the left hand rear drop out beginning with Z and then four numbers. The lugs are nothing like the OP and it has wrap over seat stays.
Was somebody in the Raleigh Group stamping department having fun thinking "This will keep them guessing for years".
Was somebody in the Raleigh Group stamping department having fun thinking "This will keep them guessing for years".
biggs682
Touch it up and ride it
- Location
- Northamptonshire
i thought muddy water was just a dirty puddle
raleighnut
Legendary Member
- Location
- One of the 'Elite'
My Carlton has Z 7675 stamped into the dropout but it ain't the frame number, that's on the BB shell which is now obscured by the cable guide I fitted in 1986 when I converted it to 10 speed 105 transmission.
raleighnut
Legendary Member
- Location
- One of the 'Elite'
Just a thought, the letter K seems to date it to 1962 from the list, maybe this would tie in with the Z prefix on mine (I know the bike is @1968 cos that is roughly when my cousin got it new) and also the fact that they changed the numbering system in 1968 would then explain the 2nd number on the BB shell as mine would have been on the transition of the numbering systems and the frames would not have been built into full cycles for a while (i.e. they would have had a few 'in stock' awaiting assembly, probably 6-8 weeks worth as I believe they were assembled in 'batches')
Illaveago
Guru
- Location
- Chippenham,Wiltshire.
That is very interesting. I am trying to remember when my friend first had his BSA, it is a long time ago now. I would assume that the BSA would have the same numbering system, which imply that it was from 1968 as well.
raleighnut
Legendary Member
- Location
- One of the 'Elite'
Don't assume anything with Raleigh built cycles frame numbers, they're a law unto themselves plus they were stamped in by hand and by a worker who probably didn't give a monkees about anything but his wage packet (watch Saturday night Sunday morning which was partly filmed at Raleigh in Nottingham)
Illaveago
Guru
- Location
- Chippenham,Wiltshire.
I have got my brain working on it. I can remember him coming back from dinner at school saying that he had bent the frame running into the back of a car. It was probably a case of wet chrome rims and thick steel bumpers. He and his brother continued to ride it for years despite the visible kink in the top and down tube.
Spokesmann
Keeping the Carlton and Sun names alive...
- Location
- Plymouth, Devon
Carlton always loved to mix it up. A lot of frames could be customer specified in terms of lugs, paint etc...
Illaveago
Guru
- Location
- Chippenham,Wiltshire.
I found an advert for Carlton frame sets from 1977 on another site that says that the frame for the Grand Prix was carbon steel. Puzzling isn't it.
