Closing roads to traffic for a few hours so children can play

[Origamist]

I've always advocated that cars should have priority on the roads.

That old advert about speed limits, you know, the hit a child at 40 and there's an x% chance he'll live wheras hit him at 30 and theres a >x% chance he'll live.....

well I always say - Stay out the road and there's a 0% chance you'll get hit no matter how fast the car is going.

How true - when as anyone ever heard of car killing a pedestrian on the pavement

 

[Mad at urage]

Nope, and now you're being obtuse.

The car should get more priority as the road is designed for traffic. Peds have a whole other section of the street especially for them - it's called the pavement.

I'm really finding it hard to believe that people are advocating roads as a perfectly safe place for kids to play. Parks and gardens seem far more sensible places to let children run amok, not the place where cars are allowed to do 30mph.

But it's clear I'm in a minority in this thread so I'll graciously back out of it.

This is the kind of attitude that has given us our current problems with motor vehicles and it is a relatively new attitude (40 - 50 years). People used to realise that driving a vehicle was a priviledge and a responsibility, that it was up to the operator to ensure that the direction the vehicle was driven would remain clear; now it is just assumed as a right that "Peds" should keep out of the way, because the driver has "more priority".

A little more driver education on the realities of the law and responsibility might help. Proper penalties for infringement of the law and for driving at "Peds" because "are allowed to do 30mph" would do even better.

"The definition of a road in England and Wales is ‘any highway and any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes’ (RTA 1988 sect 192(1)). In Scotland, there is a similar definition which is extended to include any way over which the public have a right of passage (R(S)A 1984 sect 151(1)). It is important to note that references to ‘road’ therefore generally include footpaths, bridleways and cycle tracks, and many roadways and driveways on private land (including many car parks)."

Note "the public has access", not "where cars have priority".

 

[pshore]

But streets have two parts to it.

Pavements (for peds)
Roads (for cars)

That is not so true any more. In a lot of places, the pavement is now fair game for parking so play space is significantly reduced.

You wouldn't advise someone to play in the motorway, so why advise children to play unsupervised in the road?
Obviously there are exceptions, cul-de-sacs, quiet side streets etc, but in general, please keep kids (especially younger ones) off the actual roads please.

I don't think anyone was suggesting kids go playing on busier through routes such as High Streets. We might think differently about what is an actual road. The one in the Playing Out video was a classic - entirely residential, accessible from both ends by car, but should not be a busy through route.

There is a lot of traction for regaining control of roads for pedestrians and it continues to grow. Speed bumps etc, home zones, 20's plenty, old folks with speed guns, and now Playing Out. There have also been experiments and ideas around Shared Space, removal of traffic lights

I don't drive my car into a park, and I don't come round a bend expecting kids to be playing in the roads.

... and that is the mind set most drivers are in today. Playing Out was about letting people know the time it is going to happen so it is expected. The future ideal is that every driver gets to a point where a driver does expect a child to be round the corner without the need for a defined time slot. The concept needs clear start and end points I think eventually, that will come off the back of 20mph zones and will be something like home Home Zones. We are decades away from that.


I guess one alternative solution is for segregation (the same argument for and against cycle routes). Let's take back the road space that is currently used for parking and turn it into play space outside our homes. I'd be happy for that to happen, but others wont - I have seen the battles required to replace one car parking space with Sheffield Stands in the side streets of Cambridge.

 

[Dan B]

Nope, and now you're being obtuse.

The car should get more priority as the road is designed for traffic. Peds have a whole other section of the street especially for them - it's called the pavement.

The roads have been there since long before the motor car was even invented, let alone purchased in pairs by every family in the land. There's a special name for roads designed for motor traffic: they're called "motorways", and I'm more than happy to accept that they're dedicated for that purpose. As for the rest of the road network, it's the Queen's Highway and her subjects have the common law right to pass and repass along it - I think it would be a very sad day if that right were lost because everyone else gets bullied off them by people in tin boxes who can't share.

Because the thing is, once you've decided it's OK to make them no-go areas for pedestrians, who's next?

 

[NeilEB]

Argh!

I never said that roads were a no-go area, and of course people should be able to cross the road.

Also I agree with the point that some areas are perfectly suited to playing in the road - quiet side streets where there is very little traffic for example - in fact, I used to play on such a street myself as a child.

However what annoys me is when little kids (little being below the age of about 8 or so), are allowed to happily play in the road of what is quite a busy side-street, with no supervision from parents.

There's a time and place for playing, and the roads during rush hour is really not the best time to be doing it.

The same way that you wouldn't want someone to cycle dangerously in the road (dangerous weaving, no indicating, hopping on and off pavements, riding through red lights etc), why are people suggesting it's ok for kids to play in a space that is desgined for cars to drive on?

I'm really confused by this

 

[schlafsack]

I seem to remember that in the late 90s an English court (can't remember which one) ruled that passing and repassing is not the only legitimate use of the public highway. Might have been in response to the protests at stonehenge.

Edit: turns out it's a bit more complicated than that. An interesting summary:

http://eprints.bourn...k/2901/1/82.pdf

 

[Jezston]

No one is saying it IS ok - clearly it isn't - people are saying it SHOULD be ok.

Like others have said, the only place that is supposed to be cars only is the motorway. All other streets are supposed to be for everyone, cars, pedestrians, horses, bicycles etc alike. The attitude that has been pervading however from the creation of the motorway and countries introducing laws like jaywalking is that roads are for cars and cars alone, and so if you get hurt by one for being on the road that's your fault.

I agree that this mentality needs to change. I'd like to see a situation where the roads can be used as they have always been intended - for everyone to use as they please.

 

[Wankelschrauben]

I can't see the logic behind this, do the roads they close include areas outside people's houses and driveways?

If so then a big no from me, people have a right to use the road yes, but that is all people, from children walking to adults driving.

Primarily, roads are a means for transport, roads are not play grounds.

 

[Mad at urage]

I can't see the logic behind this, do the roads they close include areas outside people's houses and driveways?

If so then a big no from me, people have a right to use the road yes, but that is all people, from children walking to adults driving.

Primarily, roads are a means for transport, roads are not play grounds.

Then why does the HC include that little sign with the motorcycle jumping over a car?

 

[summerdays]

I can't see the logic behind this, do the roads they close include areas outside people's houses and driveways?

If so then a big no from me, people have a right to use the road yes, but that is all people, from children walking to adults driving.

Primarily, roads are a means for transport, roads are not play grounds.

I've not been to a play street but when a road is closed for a street party there is usually plenty of notice and the residents know that the road is closed and either join in or park their car further down the road so that they can use it. I was surprised when for the Wedding two parallel roads were closed (one of which is a fairly busy road) but it didn't seem to cause any traffic problems locally. The atmosphere is lovely and you get neighbours who have lived on the road for 10 years or more talking to each other and introducing themselves for the first time. Lots of roads locally have an annual street party now.

 

[Arch]

Nope, and now you're being obtuse.

And clearly you, and a lot of others haven't bothered to look at the original link.

The suggestion in question is this: that every so often, a street gets together and decides to close the road to through traffic, in order for kids to play out safely, supervised by the adults. People mingle, and get to know each other. Cars may be allowed to access the road, but they will be escorted by a volunteer, at walking pace. Events generally happen for an hour or so, after school time, and the road closure will be done under official sanction.

No one is saying its ok for kids to play out, without thought or supervision, in any road. The point is to put into people's minds that streets might be for something else than bombing down in order to get from a to b as fast as possible. They might, horror of horrors, be communities!

 

[Wankelschrauben]

Cars may be allowed to access the road, but they will be escorted by a volunteer, at walking pace. Events generally happen for an hour or so, after school time, and the road closure will be done under official sanction.

Great, just when everyone's trying to get home from work.

These street party road closures will promote the mornoic behaviour that most chavs adhere to, that is to approach a road, wadle across slowly whilst staring at on coming traffic shouting profanities.

Kids play in the road all the time, they flee at first sight of a car, this is good practice.

 

[stowie]

My street is a narrow one way road with double parking. It is 20mph with speed cushions.

Kids play out on it in the summer (it slopes gently downwards so is great for skateboarding!)

The road links two major roads, and so can become a pretty big rat-run at rush hour. This is made worse by the fact that the major road junction between these two roads is configured to not allow right turns, so traffic wanting to turn right has to go up a choice of several narrow residential streets to do so.

The 20mph is widely disregarded and drivers speed day and night up the road. There are also more than the occasional "clever" driver who decides to avoid the lights and go down the road the wrong way.

In my opinion the issue isn't the kids playing out (we only have small gardens), but the drivers who disregard the law and make a pleasant residential street into a dangerous place by using inappropriate speed and ignoring road signs.

Also, the road layout is insane. The council should be forcing cars to keep to the main roads and eliminating rat runs through residential streets. Instead the layout (done so that 2 lanes of traffic can race through the lights instead of one) actually encourages high traffic volume through narrow residential roads.

I also like the fact that people assume people undertaking car journeys are on some kind of important mission. Most are under 2 miles and, certainly in this area, could be undertaken easily using cycle or public transport. Prioritising drivers doesn't make much sense on local roads.

 

[pshore]

Kids play in the road all the time, they flee at first sight of a car, this is good practice.

It is good for immediate safety of the child but the more cars there are, the more the fear allows Car Culture to dominate over the long term.

The Car Culture life-cycle:

1. Parents keep their children away from roads and wont let them play out because roads are dangerous.
2. When they are teenagers, their parents drive them everywhere because the roads are dangerous.
3. When they start driving they will not understand anything about what it is like to cycle in traffic.
4. and their driving style and contribution to traffic prevents others from cycling and walking
5. They have children, back to number 1

 

[liamsymonds]

I was lucky to be taught rode safety at a young age when I first got my bike (4 (a) ), so my parents would let me on the road and would trust me to play properly without being in danger.

Closing the roads is idiotic though, you'll only get some idiot road raging and killing innocent peds.