Commuting in a short dress - Recommended!

[ttcycle]

Young men aren't just at issue here as we have witnessed on this very thread.

To address that, this is what I've been trying to do- get people to actually think about the impact of what they write as well as what they write in the first place.

It's about speaking to people, challenging them and setting up good examples and good role models.

 

[Becs]

twobiker, in relation to the drinks thing, I'm in agreement - this is what I was trying to touch on earlier with Becs. It does no-one any favours.

Why shouldn't a single girl accept a drink from a guy that finds her attractive if she wants to get to know him? If dressing nicely increases the chance of this happening then so be it (perhaps in joking about it I gave the impression that I would use "the girls" to get as many drinks as possible out of any simple creature that's offering? )

 

[ttcycle]

Why shouldn't a single girl accept a drink from a guy that finds her attractive if she wants to get to know him? If dressing nicely increases the chance of this happening then so be it (perhaps in joking about it I gave the impression that I would use "the girls" to get as many drinks as possible out of any simple creature that's offering? )

nothing wrong with that and that's not what I'm saying, I think the transformative power of clothing for both men and women can be a great and healthy thing.

Yes, what you suggest can be empowering in some sense, but can also be disempowering. It's not taking advantage of people based on an appearance or as you have sometimes stated (equally sexist) is taking advantage and getting drinks from people due to your appearance. (EDIT: to clarify, by reducing men down to letches that will more likely buy you a drink cause you have a low cut top on - it reinforces the negative behaviour).

Isn't it much nicer to get a drink for 'getting to know' someone and their strength of personality/conversation rather than just by flashing cleavage etc etc? I speak for myself entirely but that's more satisfactory for me?

One of the problems and one of the things that I kind of find a real shame is that men and women can be so shy with approaching people they find attractive for fear of rejection.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Riding in primary and defensive cycling is not an example that marries up with women dressing 'modestly' to avoid sexual assault or violence or at the smaller scale lewd comments and behaviour.

The suggestion is absurd!

Firstly defensive cycling does not limit your freedoms does it?

No comparison is perfect and I agree that I could have chosen a better one.

It may suprise you to know that years ago I pinned a guy to the wall in a nightclub after he repeatedly hit the girl he war with. She then began hitting me. This hasn't put me off defending a Lady.
You have a perfect right to dress however you wish but you also know that certain styles of dressing will attract more attention than others. Until all young me are given Bromide nothing will change.

 

[Mad at urage]

Poor dears. By "myth", I do not mean something which is necessarily false, but a narrative and/or symbolic means of making sense of the world. We tell ourselves stories that construct or reinforce particular meanings. This process itself is being made visible on this very thread - someone asks you to think more carefully about something, and you respond with a tenuously connected narrative about something that happened "some time ago". You may think you are telling a story about how feminist hypersensitivity has resulted in men's ordinary courtesy or harmless gallantry being misunderstood, but I read it as a defensive anti-feminist cliche that deliberately uses triviality to forestall serious discussion. Either way, talking about Opening Doors usually gets us precisely nowhere.

Yes, you do don't you.

 

[Aperitif]

nothing wrong with that and that's not what I'm saying, I think the transformative power of clothing for both men and women can be a great and healthy thing.

I can change from shoot to potatoes at a stroke.

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

Excuse me? Now that is offensive AFS.

+1 afs was out of order.

this was posted whilst reading page ? of 19

 

[Angelfishsolo]

One of the problems and one of the things that I kind of find a real shame is that men and women can be so shy with approaching people they find attractive for fear of rejection.

That is certainly an issue with men. Approaching a very attractive Lady is far more scary than approaching a plain Jane. This is possibly because the man believes that the attractive Lady has far more men to choose from than a PJ.

 

[theclaud]

Not at all. Being aware of the potential dangers is one of the best ways of controling your environment.
No Lady should be treated as a piece of meat or a thing to fu*k but an awarness that many man think that way can prevent serious inncidents.

Taking a different tack for a moment, has it occurred to anyone who has never been a young woman and is dishing out advice to young women that such advice might actually be bad advice, and that it therefore might have the opposite effect of making women more vulnerable? I hope you don't mind me saying that I find it very quaint that you refer to women as Ladies (with a capital L, no less) in this situation - it implies a certain gentility which, though well intentioned, makes a certain kind of objectification inevitable even as it argues against it. Your emphasis is not on what women might want but on how Ladies should be treated. Where is the space in this picture for young women who go out as interested in a f**k as any of the men that are offering them drinks, but would like to choose whom they have it with and on what terms? There's a supposition of innocence or naivete on the part of women and a corresponding notion that there is something necessarily darkly predatory in male sexuality that women do not instinctively understand and must guard against by treating maleness with suspicion. Actually I think it's often very easy to identify suppressed hostility in men if you know what you are looking for, but it's much more difficult if you are conflating male sexual desire with the intent to harm.

 

[ttcycle]

No comparison is perfect and I agree that I could have chosen a better one.

It may suprise you to know that years ago I pinned a guy to the wall in a nightclub after he repeatedly hit the girl he war with. She then began hitting me. This hasn't put me off defending a Lady.
You have a perfect right to dress however you wish but you also know that certain styles of dressing will attract more attention than others. Until all young me are given Bromide nothing will change.

No it doesn't surprise me AFS - you appear to through your posting styles have very traditional views of masculinity and femininity. From what I know of domestic violence, you'll find many people who have intervened who have experienced the above, in fact I was talking to a friend about it the other day. You cannot know where someone is going to go with their anger.

I question whether things will not change- why not? societal attitudes to genders will take time to address but this biological deteministic - it's hard wired bollocks, is widely unproven. It's because people don't question it and because people allow it to continue and allow it to be continually reinforced.

Let me put it to you - there was a break from my posting as I headed up the road - wore my tracksuit bottoms and my waterproof jacket - still wolf whistle etc and from what I posted earlier, I wore jeans and a waterproof.

I like some very girly clothes but I don't need to be dressed in a certain way for there to be undesirable comments etc

Address the issue of commenting and the behaviour behind it.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

+1 afs was out of order.

this was posted whilst reading page ? of 19

I based my comment not just on reading this thread. When the Dutch lady was allegedly arrested for looking sexy a thread was started about it. TTCycle pretty much reacted in the same way on that thread as well.

 

[ttcycle]

That is certainly an issue with men. Approaching a very attractive Lady is far more scary than approaching a plain Jane. This is possibly because the man believes that the attractive Lady has far more men to choose from than a PJ.

That's not necessarily but again, I'm keep pushing you on this; why do people (not just men I add)

rate each other like this?

 

[Glow worm]

One of the problems and one of the things that I kind of find a real shame is that men and women can be so shy with approaching people they find attractive for fear of rejection.

Aha, phew- that must be why no women ever approach me then!

 

[ttcycle]

Taking a different tack for a moment, has it occurred to anyone who has never been a young woman and is dishing out advice to young women that such advice might actually be bad advice, and that it therefore might have the opposite effect of making women more vulnerable? I hope you don't mind me saying that I find it very quaint that you refer to women as Ladies (with a capital L, no less) in this situation - it implies a certain gentility which, though well intentioned, makes a certain kind of objectification inevitable even as it argues against it. Your emphasis is not on what women might want but on how Ladies should be treated. Where is the space in this picture for young women who go out as interested in a f**k as any of the men that are offering them drinks, but would like to choose whom they have it with and on what terms? There's a supposition of innocence or naivete on the part of women and a corresponding notion that there is something necessarily darkly predatory in male sexuality that women do not instinctively understand and must guard against by treating maleness with suspicion. Actually I think it's often very easy to identify suppressed hostility in men if you know what you are looking for, but it's much more difficult if you are conflating male sexual desire with the intent to harm.

Absolutely.

 

[theclaud]

Yes, you do don't you.

We all do. But only some of us are aware of it.