Cree light batteries - fire

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w00hoo_kent

One of the 64K
Not if they are 18650's, different form factor (well, not as in not easily, anything is possible although I'd imagine it'd suck through AA's pretty quick.)

Just take care when charging them, for instance don't leave them charging overnight, or completely unattended. Don't leave them charging for significantly longer than they need.
 

Custom24

Über Member
Location
Oxfordshire
Not if they are 18650's, different form factor (well, not as in not easily, anything is possible although I'd imagine it'd suck through AA's pretty quick.)

Just take care when charging them, for instance don't leave them charging overnight, or completely unattended. Don't leave them charging for significantly longer than they need.
Thanks. I already charge attended, in a LiPO bag (although I have a feeling that this might as well be a paper one), in a metal biscuit tin. I still don't fancy dealing with a Lithium fire and explaining to the wife what happened.

Different form factor - doesn't matter. The battery pack for the XML lamp is just 4x18650 cells wrapped together with hopefully a thermal protection device. It doesn't go in the XML lamp, but is separate to it, so I was thinking that as I have a couple of 4xAA cradles/housings, I could replace the Li battery pack with these.

18650 is rated 2200-3600 mAh, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes, and the AA rechargeables I have are similar. So I'd expect runtime to be similar.
The difference is the voltage. AA rechargeables are 1.2V, where 18650 cells are I think 3.7V. I'm not sure if the Li-ion battery pack has them wired in series, or parallel, though... Anyone know? @Lanzecki?
 

w00hoo_kent

One of the 64K
and should the worst happen, how on earth does one tackle a lithium battery fire?

Scoop it up, run outside, knock it free from the electrics it was soldered to (easy when the wires are now a crisp) and then leave it on some concrete paving slabs to sort itself out. Tidy the cooled slag away later.

I would guess.

(of course, that was a mobile phone battery soldered to a toy pistol pretty sure it was lithium and not nimh though... I have some weird hobbies.)
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
The biggest issue is usually corrosion to the terminals and or the protection circuit as the batteries aren't weatherproof at all. Best bet is to buy protected batteries and use a battery pack where you can remove the batteries (like the ones I ordered last year). These cases are waterproof and protect the batteries from knocks.

I've had quite a few cheap packs, and generally these have been ok. One pack did stop working and I pulled it to bits to remove the cells. Two were good, two bad. I have an Xtar smart charger for charging loose cells. If you use the cases you can charge with your usual charger or remove the cells to charge individually. By occasionally removing the cells, this ensures they stay balanced. The cheap packs aren't correctly balanced and you can end up with cells being under or overcharged.
 

Lanzecki

Über Member
18650 is rated 2200-3600 mAh, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes, and the AA rechargeables I have are similar. So I'd expect runtime to be similar.
The difference is the voltage. AA rechargeables are 1.2V, where 18650 cells are I think 3.7V. I'm not sure if the Li-ion battery pack has them wired in series, or parallel, though... Anyone know? @Lanzecki?

All Single Cell non-rechargable AAA, AA, C, D and all the wacky variations made to get your money Give 1.5V.
The rechargable versions give 1.2V but generally a better Wattage.

18650's describe the physical size. 18.6 × 65.2mm A single cell give 4.2v upto 4000mAh.

Generally a 4 cell lipo pack will have 2 cells in series and 2 in Parallel giving 8.4v at upto 8000mAh .

A 2 Cell lipo pack will be wired parallel giving 8.4v upto 8000mAh

All the packs I've opened (even the really cheap ones) have protective circuits. These stop over charging, under charging and over heats. Buying single cells, you won't have this circuit.

To get the same output from AA's as a 18650 is not just about matching Volts, but mAh. The physical size, weight and recharge time would out weigh any benefit over the 18650 Lipo cells. Modern lipo cells are much safer then they used to be if that is your worry.

Without considering it, I would be concerned that the AA cell's cannot discharge quickly enough and you'd get internal damage. Ni-Cad and NIMH can and do blow up. Trust me when I say don't stick Ni-Cad cells in a charger backwards. Heck stick an alkaline cell in a charger and watch (with PPE gear and a fire extinguisher)

and should the worst happen, how on earth does one tackle a lithium battery fire?
Run away?

Yup. DON'T USE WATER. Use a charging bag. Or a bucket of sand. I charge mine by a window. Not that I'm worried they will blow, but it's nice to be able to lob them out if something goes wrong.

As @w00hoo_kent says don't leave them alone, even if you think you know them. Treat them like a newborn. They don't take long to charge. Simple precautions will ensure safety:

Don't use a pack or cell if it's damaged. Especially if it's got bulges or the heat shrink looks melted.
Use a proper charger. Not a modified Ni-Cd charger.
Don't leave packs unattended.
long term storage should (ideally) have the battery charged to 75% before packaging. Next best is fully charged. And topped up every 3 months in either situation.

Notes: Packs are not charged by time. The charger / protection circuit decides when to stop. Charging for X hours because that's how many hours it needed last time (like Ni-CAD) to charge is dangerous. But using a factory built pack and correct charger (LIPO) will negate that problem.

If you wonder if you have the control circuit buried away in that pack, you do. No idiot is going to sell un-protected packs. Well not for long. To check this, note that the cable that connects to the light doesn't go to the top of the cell's but usually down the side to a bulge. This is the control circuit. It's very small.

To double check you have one, turn the light on and wait, the light will eventually turn off (like the switch was turned off, not a fade out). This is the circuit stopping the power to protect the cell's from discharging too far. The light output will drop some, but it'll be a on one min, off the next.
 
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Lanzecki

Über Member
A few pictures I posted on http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/lights-cree-xml-xm-l-t6-u2-etc-thread.117285/post-2994564

batterys.png

An opened Li-ion Pack showing the protection circuit.:

IMAG0088.png
 

MrGrumpy

Huge Member
Location
Fly Fifer
The problem with these battery packs are the cheap nasty recovered batteries that can sometimes be found in them. Currently using Cree torches with the Li-ion batts, I charge them individually and with a good quality charger. The cheap chargers that come with the T6 Cree bike headlight thats everyone and there dog has is just damm right rubbish. Spend a bit more on a battery pack which has all the proper protection and a decent charger, will cost you a bit more than the T6 Cree package altogethor thatv everyone seems to have. I`m finding though in all honesty that I think I might go back to brands with some sort of guarantee as the chinese knock offs can be a lottery even from new.
 

Custom24

Über Member
Location
Oxfordshire
Hi Lanzecki, thanks for your detailed replies. I shall abandon the idea of the AA rechargeables.

DON'T USE WATER.
Actually I would have said the same, given the high school science fizzing Lithium experiments releasing Hydrogen from water. And I thought Mort was being mischevious by saying

[QUOTE 3237403, member: 259"]If it's a Li-ion battery fire, which is the case for all the Li-ion rechargeable batteries, chuck a bucket of water on it.[/QUOTE]

But water can be used, apparently, because "Li-ion contains no lithium metal and does not react with water"

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/safety_concerns_with_li_ion

So, hat off to Mort:thumbsup:

Heck stick an alkaline cell in a charger and watch (with PPE gear and a fire extinguisher)
Slightly off-topic, but a few years ago I got suckered into buying a recharger for alkaline batteries from a magazine. This sounds like magic beans, but it was a fairly legitimate device that "works" by using a microprocessor to monitor the battery state individually during charging. It did work, and didn't set fire to my house, but there were two things the magazine advertisement didn't draw attention to
1. You have to recharge the batteries after every usage from new, or at least very frequently, to prolong their life to the advertised extent. Batteries already dead are rejected. Recharging say at 50% won't give anywhere near the same benefit.
2. The batteries WILL leak inside your intended appliance, writing it off.
 
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