CTC forum thread on 'Charity' status

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Here's my take on it. I'm just back (after a long ride), and I'm quite shocked by the levels of unprofessional behaviour displayed by some officials of the CTC.

The meeting started on time, but then it was pointed out some of the people who had previously given their vote to a proxy, might now want to vote. They hadn't considered this, and initially didn't want to make any changes*. Then someone stated that when they checked in at the venue, a CTC employee hold him his special coloured sticker meant he could vote. This wasn't actually the case. There were about 25 people present who had already given a proxy vote, so the meeting was adjourned for 45 minutes. It turns out the Chair and his colleagues tried to persuade all of those not to remove their votes from the proxy! 5 however did want to alter, and democracy did prevail, and their votes were taken off their proxy, and so allowing them to vote in person.

For the first Motion, the Chair stated he wasn't going to record abstentions, but when Simon stated his proxy votes were "Abstained", subsequently these were recorded. Then Kevin Mayne did a little talk about how the CTC was doing, although this should really have been done at the start. There was some robust debate about the accounts, with both User and Simon pointing out that there's no clear detail on the accounts and the true cost or benefit of anything. Barry Flood then defended the accounts, stating that as he was an ex HMRC Inspector, in no way could the CTC accounts be described as dodgy. However, that wasn't the argument being made.

Motion 5 to increase the subscription also had some debate with the point being made about how little went to the DA (18p?) with most of the work being done for nothing by volunteers.

Next up was the motion to draft and publish a job description for the Chief Executive. Obviously this was passed, but I really can't understand how an organisation the size of the CTC hasn't done that years ago. Again, it brings up the issue about lack of accountability and experience in how to properly run a business.

Finally we got to Motions 8 & 9 about converting the rest of the CTC to a charity. A lot of people wanted to have their say, but most of the pro comments, including a number of Councillors seemed to not grasp the comments made by User & Mr Legg, that converting may well be the right path, just not straight away, whilst it's clear the senior management aren't able to properly track and identify what the organisation is doing, coupled with the conflicting figures provided by the CTC for the supposed financial benefit.

The Yes argument won by 4%, but this was purely down to the approx. 400 or so who had given their proxy vote to the Chair, and left it to the discretion of the Chair about how to vote, rather than Yes or No, so obviously the Chair gave those votes to the Yes side.

For the final Motion, about altering the Memorandum and Articles of Association to be in line with what's required for charities, I was very surprised by Barry Flood saying before hand that anyone who voted No on the previous 2 motions should reconsider, and note what the majority of the CTC had agreed, and so should vote Yes for the rule changes. I think less than 5% of the membership actually voted overall anyway, so not a majority!

Anyway, due to the requirement for this last one to get 75% agreement, it failed with only 60.9%.

So they're left with a mandate allowing them to continue down the path of converting fully to a charity, but they can't actually do it, without getting a 75% agreement at another AGM. What a farce.


The one bright spot was Mr FNRttC getting a volunteer of the year award.



Edit:

* the actual proxy form does quite clearly state that if someone attends, that would revoke the proxy. The Chair and his officials quite clearly wanted to ignore that and deny some people the opportunity of voting personally.
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
Flying Dodo said:
The one bright spot was Mr FNRttC getting a volunteer of the year award.
:smile:
 

mangaman

Guest
As an ex-member I'm clearly not so involved, but having read what Simon and Greg and others have said, the whole charity thing does seem a ridiculous idea.

What I can't understand is everyone on this thread seems to agree. I haven't read every page, I admit, but there seems to be a vast opposition to this on this website.

It makes me wonder who the majority that voted for are? You'd expect quite a few to be members here and to have turned this thread into a debate.

Are they crusty old timers that haven't discovered the computer?
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
mangaman said:
As an ex-member I'm clearly not so involved, but having read what Simon and Greg and others have said, the whole charity thing does seem a ridiculous idea.

What I can't understand is everyone on this thread seems to agree. I haven't read every page, I admit, but there seems to be a vast opposition to this on this website.

It makes me wonder who the majority that voted for are? You'd expect quite a few to be members here and to have turned this thread into a debate.

Are they crusty old timers that haven't discovered the computer?

From the number that handed their votes to the Chair, I'd guess that it was people who didn't feel strongly and were actively persuaded by nice people like Bike Club reps to trust in the nice shiny Yes campaign to take care of it all for them and hand over their forms. Unless you share the ambitions of the powers that be, or your job depends on the kind of work done by the Trust, there isn't really anything of substance to fire the passions in the Yes campaign...
 

Mac66

Senior Member
Location
Newbury-ish
On such a fundamental issue, I am suprised that the voting turnout was so low at about 4%.

Hardly a resounding majority yes or no. More of a couldn't give a ... Is this a sign of the level of disengement within the CTC membership?

As in "real life" it seems that people are happy to let their fate be decided by, what is in effect, the small minority who can be bothered.

I think that however unworkable and/or idealistic it may be it would be preferable for motions to carry on a percentage of the membership basis rather than the percentage of votes cast, so 75% of the full membership voting for a yes say. However, on that basis I suppose nothing would get done!

It also bothers me that the Chair has a discretionary vote for proxies, where there is a clear conflict of interest. Surely there should only be yes/no options, with the Chair only getting a say in a dead-heat? Still a conflict there, but better than just wading in a couple of 100 yes votes because that's what he wants?

Lastly I would like to thank all the Councillors and others who have worked and will still work to keep the real interests and concerns of the CTC membership at the forefront of this somewhat shabby episode. Chapeau
 

Dan B

Disengaged member
Mac66 said:
As in "real life" it seems that people are happy to let their fate be decided by, what is in effect, the small minority who can be bothered.
I think TBH that most of them (us) will simply let their membership lapse if they feel the club (er, should I say the charity?) is not doing anything worthwhile, rather than working to change things.
 

snorri

Legendary Member
coruskate said:
rather than working to change things.

Change, CHANGE :ohmy::?:
The number of members bothering to vote recently would indicate to me that as long as the mag' and insurance cover continues the vast majority will be content.
 
OP
OP
dellzeqq

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
we've got to be careful here...

the first thing to recognise is that the 'nay' campaign capitalised on a number of issues and outlooks on life that didn't have much to do with the question of the charity. My main motivation was the preservation and enhancement of all that is best in the Club - I thought, and still think, that management had neglected the Club. In that respect I represented the Tory Backwoodsman Tendency, which, for me is a novelty.

Greg's motivation was more technical - he smelt a rat on the finances, and has, I suspect a genuine Tory suspicion of all things governmental. John and Colin also smelt a rat on the finances and suspected that merging the two sets of accounts would make the finances less transparent rather than more transparent.

All of our suspicions were confirmed, and amplified, when it transpired that staff time is unnacounted for - people do not fill in time sheets. When members are told that nineteen staff members are working on Club business they're sceptical, and, if staff are not recording that they are on this or that day visiting branch officials, or corresponding with members, or whatever, then that scepticism cannot be allayed...and, more important still, there is no way that the CTC can get a handle on where the money goes. I'm sure that any of you who work in professional practice have to account for your time, and recognise this as a vital means of keeping track of expenditure, and forecasting expenditure on future undertakings; in the CTC that just doesn't happen! The CTC cannot put a value to the services to members.

So when we say that the accounts are mere numbers we mean that the numbers have no meaning. They cannot be said to represent expenditure. And, lets be fair, Barry Flood knows that improvements have got to be made and is in the best position to ensure that they are made - one of the principal effects of the 'nay' vote will be to strengthen Barry's hand, and that can only be for the good.

But, if we go back to the start of the debate, and pick up on contributions made by Rod King, there's something more fundamental at stake. Councillors get to be councillors because they want to do it, and their fellow members reckon that they're sound. You don't have to have a business head to be a councillor or to read accounts. In my case I became a Councillor because of bunch of awkward old buzzards thought that I had the makings of an awkward old buzzard myself. I don't think they were disappointed, but that doesn't make me the kind of person that a trading company like the Trust needs to ensure that the executive is doing the right things for the right money - that there is no project accounting is as much my fault as anybody else's. The truth is that I made a good Councillor of the Club, but I was rubbish at being a shadow Director of the Trust.

Organisations like the Trust shouldn't be run by volunteers. At the moment the Trust is blessed with Greg, Barry Flood and John Meudell, and my estimation, reinforced by some of the contributions made to the debate yesterday is that they are about the only ones up to the task, and, in particular, the only ones capable of holding the management to account. Had the Trust taken the high-end route and offered advice, undertaken research and set benchmarks then wise volunteers would have a role to play, but an opportunistic contractor, skittering from contract to contract needs experienced non-execs

A Councillor for the Club listens to the representations of the members, seeks out opinions from the members and gets the executive to sort things out - in my time Karen Sutton, Jill Kieran and I did this and we succeeded in part. We had no handle on the trading activities of the Trust.

The Trust should be a seperate company with non-exec Directors. The trading risk that it runs has no place in the same pot of money as the members subs - they're two entirely different types of business. The present arrangement is pretty much carte blanche for the executives, and, if my suspicions about the way that the Training operation is carried out are anything near correct then we have not just a scandal on our hands, but a real risk to the trading account.

So I have to say that listening to some of the Councillors at the AGM has very much hardened my view against the proposed merger.

The choice we have is this

a) we can quit. Frankly I've had enough, and the easiest thing for me to do is to join some of my fellow DA committee members in setting up a cycle club and affiliating to the LCC, and inviting others from around the country to join us
:ohmy: we can help Barry Flood clean out the stables and be content that his best efforts are the best the CTC can expect, and acknowledge that it will never be as each of us would wish it.
c) we can regroup and seek to reverse resolutions 8 and 9 when the opportunity arises

each of these has its advantages - although I accept the advantages of the first option are more personal.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
The whole sorry mess seems to be summed up in the following which is a summary of something I read elsewhere...

all income is credited to the trust, all outgoings are charged to the club.

If true then it may actually be that thing are broken beyond repair, and Simon's option :biggrin: probably pertains.

My membership is due end of May. I will renew for one year if only to ensure I get a vote on resolution 10 again.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
User said:
I and other have worked hard over the last year to try and put that right. But we are up against a combination of management intransigence and a Council who either doesn't understand or doesn't care about such matters.

There is a third option; the current arrangement suits the interests of the majority of the various 'vested interests' down to the ground.

That is my take. I look at any messy situation that has sensible people throwing their hands up and saying "How did we get here? What can be done?" and just ask "Qui bono?" Almost nothing happens during working hours by accident.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
coruskate said:
I think TBH that most of them (us) will simply let their membership lapse if they feel the club (er, should I say the charity?) is not doing anything worthwhile, rather than working to change things.

Quite. I suspect I speak for the largely-silent majority(?) when I say that I pay £36 a year subscription, for which I get insurance, a decent magazine, a database of interesting routes and a warm fuzzy feeling that I'm contributing to some useful campaigning. That seems like a decent exchange to me.

I have no interest in being an active part a DA - I want to ride when I feel like it, not when someone else decides to organise a ride. And I have the Groucho Marx attitude to clubs and belonging.

From that perspective I don't particularly care about organisational structures. From a professional perspective I understand that they're very important things to get right, but also that if people outside the bureaucracy begin to notice them then something has gone wrong. An organisation ought to be able to operate without its members/supporters/customers/stakeholders noticing how it operates. At the moment what I'm seeing in CTC I can tolerate because the money is relatively unimportant to me in the grand scheme of things, and because the other stuff I'm paying for is still in place. If it was more money, or if I experienced a deterioration in service I might have another opinion.
 
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