Cycle facilities are rubbish - reason # 4792

[Origamist]

Interesting, I've not seen this one before (can't miss it with that font). It's right up my stato-like street.

I posted a close shave with a taxi, partly caused (I think) by the false impression of segregation created by some sorry cycle lanes. My worry is that the money given to sustrans will be wasted on more of this guff. Then the motoring lobby will turn around and say "you've had your cash, so stop moaning (and get off our roads)".

Talking to a car-loving colleague recently about the sustrans money, I described most of the cycle farcilities around our work as a kind of cycling apartheid. Its an emotive phrase to use, but the analogy holds up pretty well.

The Pucher/Buehler paper makes a number of salient points and I'm glad you've taken the time to peruse it.

I've just seen your video and passes like that happen on roads with and without cycle lanes at junctions. I'm not sure I'd read too much into it.

 

[Bollo]

The Pucher/Buehler paper makes a number of salient points and I'm glad you've taken the time to peruse it.

I've just seen your video and passes like that happen on roads with and without cycle lanes at junctions. I'm not sure I'd read too much into it.

M'colleagues 'thank' you for giving me more ammunition.

I know what you mean about the vid and you're probably right to a point. I've since had a word with the taxi driver. Based on this civilised chat, I think he'd just entered the 'zone' where you can drive miles without remembering anything. As I was lingering on the edge of the cycle lane, I don't think he really consciously 'saw' me. Its in these cases that a driver's default behaviour is just to stay in his lane.

I know its only anecdotal, but I feel I get more room on the sections of this road that don't have the lanes marked,even when I'm in primary and out of the lane.

 

[Origamist]

I know its only anecdotal, but I feel I get more room on the sections of this road that don't have the lanes marked,even when I'm in primary and out of the lane.

If you're gonna get anecdotal, I would have been more interested to know the incidences of perceived close passes before and after the introduction of the lanes

As you appear to adopt a more central lane position at these junctions (for reasons of conspicuity, I presume) you may well suffer from close passes (admonitory overtakes or inconsiderate driving) regardless of the implementation of narrow cycle lanes - the road is relativley wide and a number of drivers simply won't feel the need to use the opposing lane.

Maybe the upside of these lanes is that motorists approaching from the minor roads are more cognizant of cyclists due to the lane markings...

 

[Bollo]

If you're gonna get anecdotal, I would have been more interested to know the incidences of perceived close passes before and after the introduction of the lanes

...and, to determine the bias introduced by my perception of the passes, I should then repeat the ride blindfolded with an ipod on. Or with a gimp mask? But then that might bias the behaviour of the drivers?! Oooo, experimental design is hard!!!

Maybe the upside of these lanes is that motorists approaching from the minor roads are more cognizant of cyclists due to the lane markings...

Please tell me you forgot to put some smileys after this! Too thin to be easily seen from the minor road and the cycle marking is the wrong way round. Markings indicate part of NCN23, the same NCN that I play "Horace goes pothole dodging" just out of town. I know where I'd like the cash to go.

 

[Origamist]

...and, to determine the bias introduced by my perception of the passes, I should then repeat the ride blindfolded with an ipod on. Or with a gimp mask? But then that might bias the behaviour of the drivers?! Oooo, experimental design is hard!!!


Please tell me you forgot to put some smileys after this! Too thin to be easily seen from the minor road and the cycle marking is the wrong way round. Markings indicate part of NCN23, the same NCN that I play "Horace goes pothole dodging" just out of town. I know where I'd like the cash to go.

I think your bias is self-evident and would of course be factored

As for the gimp mask, I wouldn't joke - I once wore a city suit and bowler hat and was treated as if I had a police entourage - loads of room, waves and smiles, and someone asked if I wanted to read his FT at a bus stop - I felt like royalty. Don't underestimate odd headwear...

I don't think you can have it both ways Bollo. You suggest that some motorists see the lane and drive with less consideration (therefore recognising the facility and of course you), but when they approach a junction from a minor road they struggle to spot the cycle lane and ignore what it signifies?

I can see give way markings which are thinner than cycle lanes from a considerable distance - can't you? Of course, some drivers wan't give two hoots about paint the road, others might.

Is "Horace goes pothole dodging" a sequel to Ars Poetica?

 

[CotterPin]

I am not sure how ethical it is to keep responding to my own post.

I seem to recollect there has been some limited research done to analyse motorists' reactions to cyclists on roads with and without cycle lanes. I think it was carried out by a cycle campaigning group and their findings suggested that cyclists got less space when there was a bike lane than on a road with with no bike lane.

Origamist - I think I am with Bollo on the bike lanes across junctions. There are some in Camden where the council have had to put ip very big signs to make it clear the bike lane is there and still you have cars shoot right out in front of you.

 

[Origamist]

I am not sure how ethical it is to keep responding to my own post.

I seem to recollect there has been some limited research done to analyse motorists' reactions to cyclists on roads with and without cycle lanes. I think it was carried out by a cycle campaigning group and their findings suggested that cyclists got less space when there was a bike lane than on a road with with no bike lane.

Origamist - I think I am with Bollo on the bike lanes across junctions. There are some in Camden where the council have had to put ip very big signs to make it clear the bike lane is there and still you have cars shoot right out in front of you.

Do you have a citation?

No one is suggesting that such cycle lanes will stop vehicles failing to give way to cyclists at junctions, I'm not even suggesting that in the grand scheme of things they'll ameliorate the situation. I was suggesting the potential for greater cognizance of cyclists. Cars will still pull out in front of you simply because you're a riding a bike - regardless of a seemingly tokenistic lane at a junction.

 

[CotterPin]

No citation - just anecdote, and I know the plural of anecdote is not data. I am aware of two or three people who have been injured on the cycle routes I was refering to as a consequence of cars coming out of side roads.

Personally I am all for anything that raises the profile of cyclists. I am just not convinced cycle lanes do the trick.

Stephen

 

[Bollo]

I don't think you can have it both ways Bollo. You suggest that some motorists see the lane and drive with less consideration (therefore recognising the facility and of course you), but when they approach a junction from a minor road they struggle to spot the cycle lane and ignore what it signifies?

I can see give way markings which are thinner than cycle lanes from a considerable distance - can't you? Of course, some drivers wan't give two hoots about paint the road, others might.

Much smaller solid angle when approching from the minor road -> much less visible - don't make me do the math! I was only ever talking about vehicles travelling along the road. You suggested that the markings might have some relevence for vehicles approaching from the minor road, not me!

Give way markings - reflective white paint - placed on (almost) every junction in the land - a primary indicator of a right of way. Their meaning understood by every driver in the land (ok that's BS).
Funny non-reflective, low contrast red stripe appearing across maybe about 1 in a 100,000 junctions - no specific mention in the HC.
Which do you think is more likely to enter a driver's consciousness?

Are you going for CC's 'most promising young bonj' award Origamist?

 

[Origamist]

Much smaller solid angle when approching from the minor road -> much less visible - don't make me do the math! I was only ever talking about vehicles travelling along the road. You suggested that the markings might have some relevence for vehicles approaching from the minor road, not me!

Give way markings - reflective white paint - placed on (almost) every junction in the land - a primary indicator of a right of way. Their meaning understood by every driver in the land (ok that's BS).
Funny non-reflective, low contrast red stripe appearing across maybe about 1 in a 100,000 junctions - no specific mention in the HC.
Which do you think is more likely to enter a driver's consciousness?

Are you going for CC's 'most promising young bonj' award Origamist?

That is correct - I was talking about a possible tangential benefit from vehicles approaching from a minor road. I hope it is pellucid from my remarks that I am not advocating these lanes as examples of fantastic cycling infrastructure, I was merely pointing out a possible justification for their implementation.

That said, if you are seriously suggesting that motorists struggle to see and understand what the cycle lane in front of the junction signifies, than we are seriously at odds and I have no intention of getting into a tiresome adversarial debate or childish name calling (I assume CC's "most promising young bonj" is perjorative).

 

[Bollo]

we are seriously at odds and I have no intention of getting into a tiresome adversarial debate or childish name calling.

Not my cup of tea either.

(I assume CC's "most promising young bonj" is perjorative).

Bonj is a cult hero here on CC. You should seek out some of his posts. I'd take it as a back-handed compliment, rather than an insult.

 

[magnatom]

That said, if you are seriously suggesting that motorists struggle to see and understand what the cycle lane in front of the junction signifies, than we are seriously at odds

I think the problem with these cycle lanes is not specifically that motorists don't understand them as such, it's just that they don't register. They look for road markings that are of interest to them and ignore all of the others. We all do that, filter what we deem as important information. The problem is that drivers often do not see cycle lane markings as important information and thus ignore them.

It might be anecdotal, but I have seen many occasions where cars have seen a cyclist in a lane and thought because they are in a lane (which must be of the right size!) then they pass them more closely. I have a feeling that I may have done this before I took up cycling.

 

[Origamist]

Not my cup of tea either.


Bonj is a cult hero here on CC. You should seek out some of his posts. I'd take it as a back-handed compliment, rather than an insult.

If it is the same bonj from the old C+ days, then I know the character in question and the comparison is odious! If this was a few centuries ago, I'd demand satisfaction...

Your obstinacy reminds me of another (much lamented) cult figure, tstegers (and that is not meant as an insult).

 

[Bollo]

"salient conspicuity admonitory cognizant cognizance ameliorate tokenistic tangential pellucid adversarial perjorative odious"

Watch out Origamist! The plain English campaign has a posse!

 

[Origamist]

"salient conspicuity admonitory cognizant cognizance ameliorate tokenistic tangential pellucid adversarial perjorative odious"

Watch out Origamist! The plain English campaign has a posse!

I think I'd survive, as they are more interested in long-windedness, gobbledygook, management speak and cliches - not apposite, polysyllabic words.