Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

[jonesy]

Well, yes and no. I don't think anyone things are acceptable the way that they are. However, the predominant opinion amongst British cycling campaigners (and this is, let us remind ourselves, for good or ill, something rather peculiar to Britain) is that cyclists should be mixing it with all other kinds of motor traffic. One might say, 'like it is now, but better', rather than 'rethinking the way roads are' in a more radical way.

Now only one of those radical ways is limited segregation. Personally, I'd have hard segregation on major roads, but do this properly - lots of room, redesigned junctions and traffic signals favouring cyclists, etc. But I'd also ban motor vehicles almost entirely (except for vehicles for the disabled and set hours for deliveries) from a much wider range of roads and streets and return them to the mixed use spaces that they once were, places where children could play and all kinds of impromptu activities could happen. We are too fixated, whether we are cyclists or drivers or both, on transport and mobility, and not enough on the qualities of place and everyday life.

Well, yes- but there are a lot of posts advocating exactly this sort of thing throughout this thread! This discussion really isn't a total segregation vs high speed vehicular cycling dichotomy.

dellzeqq: "it's not just about roadways though. Look beyond cycle lanes (which will generally detract from the conviviality of streets), and ask - is this street meaningful? Do people want to be here? Is it a flourishing place? Do the people who live and work here think of it as their own? Does it have a character that is particular to the area? Does it have the mix of shops, history, dwellings, places of worship. people and whatever that gives identity? Untamed car traffic destroys streets"

GregCollins: "f the streets were not choked with cars everyone could, and maybe would, cycle on them. So the answer has to be to regulate the use of private motor vechiles by whatever means necessary to get them out of our town and city centres not superimpose a seperate infrastructure so different classes of people can avoid them. This country already has the ideal cycling infrastutrue in the heart of every town and city, the streets, the only thing that wrecks it is excessive car use. ...By building cycleways I feel we are addressing the symptoms of the problem not the root cause, which I contend is this; motor traffic, and associated noise, pollution, and demand for parking, but most of all its speed, has simply turned our towns and cities uncivilised places to live in."

Richard Mann: "Basically - what the (north) Dutch did wrong was to assume that you couldn't restrict cars. In the 21st Century, we can do better, because we know that you can restrict cars, starting with their speed....you also need to restrict traffic. You can get a long way by slowing traffic down, and jacking up parking costs, but sooner or later you need to do more (especially in larger cities). "

DanB: "P.S If we're talking about pragmatism vs idealism, my ideal would be to get the cars off the road, not the cyclists. We were here first.(I might make allowances for cars driven at appropriate speeds and with the requisite level of care for a shared public space. The Locomotive Act 1865 includes some provisions and sensible safeguards that I think we could usefully revisit) "

 

[jonesy]

Just stumbled upon this article where certain John Franklin (I presume it's the same one) is quoted saying:



Now, I don't know the context of the question so maybe the situation is different from what I'm thinking, but I'm fairly certain most cyclists would prefer cycle routes. That is, I don't believe every road in the network is ever going to fully accomodate both cars and cyclists so you'll always end up with roads that are more suitable for cars, and others that are more suitable for bicycles, you know, cycle routes. When cycling in places I've never been before I'd like to be able to just follow cycle route signs to get where I'm going and actually get a reasonable route avoiding motorway like conditions.

"Cycle route" covers a multitude of sins though, doesn't it... I'd certainly agree with you that most cyclists (or perhaps we should be discussing potential cyclists) would prefer "routes that are more suitable for bicycles", however that isn't always what is on offer from a cycle route. If you are riding in Oxford for example, I suggest you don't bother looking for 'cycle routes', as if you spot one (the NCN for example) it will usually take you much further out of your way than is necessary, and you can cycle far more directly, along with lots of other cyclists, on the main roads. Much of the LCN seems to fit that description in London. You will no doubt make the objection that you don't want crappy indirect cycle routes, you want good ones, like they have in Copenhagen, but indirect, fractal routes is what you'll get if you want them to avoid the main corridors . Cycle networks will only be legible and direct if they follow as much of the road network as is possible (I'm not talking about major roads and motorways here). We've reached the limit of what can be achieved with back streets, canal paths and disused railway lines; and while there are examples of these sort of routes that do provide good quality, attractive, links that give cyclists advantage in particular locations, you can't create a town or city sized network like that. Which is why we have to focus on practicable and affordable measures that make the main corridors more cycleable, by traffic reduction, reducing speed, reallocating road space etc etc.

 

[Red Light]

It's difficult to take issue with urban cycling as a combative, hair-trigger thrill because let's be clear, it is. What's harder to swallow is the oft repeated lie that anyone can do it and they'll come through the journey unscathed. Unless you adopt a proactive/ defensive/ in-yer-face mode of bike riding, you will come a cropper, sooner rather than later.

I think you have lost touch with reality. Over three million Boris Bike journeys which are anything but hair trigger combative riding and only 15 minor injuries to show for it. Another 2 million hire bike journeys in Dublin over two years with only a couple of short visits to A&E to show for them. All done by inexperienced riders mainly without helmets and apparently surviving pretty well in contrast to your visions of mass carnage.

So millions of urban cycle journeys are being made by largely inexperienced cyclists and they are coming through unscathed without coming croppers sooner or later. Back to the drawing board with your theories methinks.

 

[lukesdad]

Idealists vs Realists vs Survivelists. then ?

 

[blockend]

Can anyone name a UK city except London where brickie's arse cycling is in the ascendency? If you take away Borisworld and Oxbridge, where is this cycling elysium I'm missing? Sounds like more metrocentric, zone onery to me.

 

[dellzeqq]

is this a different theory? One that will contract each and every time somebody comes up with an answer, and, in any case, means very little once the first theory is despatched to the long-on boundary........

 

[blockend]

is this a different theory? One that will contract each and every time somebody comes up with an answer, and, in any case, means very little once the first theory is despatched to the long-on boundary........

Or is it more a case of 'I saw a lady in a skirt on Waterloo Bridge only yesterday' so the nation's cyclists can rest easy. You need to get out more. And I don't mean Zone 2. The invitation to show me an expanding utility cycling city is still on.

 

[dellzeqq]

Or is it more a case of 'I saw a lady in a skirt on Waterloo Bridge only yesterday' so the nation's cyclists can rest easy. You need to get out more. And I don't mean Zone 2.

ah - yes. I reckon that's the sound of a goose being cooked........

 

[blockend]

Just one demographically expanding UK cycle city will do.

 

[dellzeqq]

Swansea...........according to the local paper. It's gone mammoth!

 

[blockend]

Swansea...........according to the local paper. It's gone mammoth!

Does that count as the peer review everyone on here asks for? If I head for Swansea this weekend I can expect to see cycling nuns and football supporters heading for the play-offs on their Bromptons? 'Mammoth' is local news speak for a Pedals spokeman in a lime green helmet saying he's definitely noticed an upturn since they gave some stickers out saying 'one less car' in the Arndale centre.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Well, yes- but there are a lot of posts advocating exactly this sort of thing throughout this thread! This discussion really isn't a total segregation vs high speed vehicular cycling dichotomy.

Yeah, but all of those people (and any of them can correct me if I am wrong here) object to hard segregation as well. I want reclaiming of urban space where possible and hard segregation on major roads where it's not.

 

[Red Light]

Just one demographically expanding UK cycle city will do.

Bristol - and that's with all the hills.

 

[dellzeqq]

Does that count as the peer review everyone on here asks for? If I head for Swansea this weekend I can expect to see cycling nuns and football supporters heading for the play-offs on their Bromptons? 'Mammoth' is local news speak for a Pedals spokeman in a lime green helmet saying he's definitely noticed an upturn since they gave some stickers out saying 'one less car' in the Arndale centre.

I think you had to be there (or, at least, spend some time in other parts of this august establishment - or even click on the link below!).

Tell you what - you set out the Blockend Prospectus, enthuse people with your (presumably positive) vision of the future, and start a campaign. I'm pretty happy with the way things are going, but if you can persuade me to be discontented then I'll join in. If not, I can just carry on pootling round the country. Happy days!

 

[Fab Foodie]

I think you had to be there (or, at least, spend some time in other parts of this august establishment - or even click on the link below!).

Tell you what - you set out the Blockend Prospectus, enthuse people with your (presumably positive) vision of the future, and start a campaign. I'm pretty happy with the way things are going, but if you can persuade me to be discontented then I'll join in. If not, I can just carry on pootling round the country. Happy days!

Make sure you're pootling in 'Primary Position' though ....