Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

[GrumpyGregry]

Yeah, but all of those people (and any of them can correct me if I am wrong here) object to hard segregation as well. I want reclaiming of urban space where possible and hard segregation on major roads where it's not.

I've no problem with hard segregation on urban expressways for instance. (though I'd rather they were not built in the first place)

I've no problem with hard segregation provided it is the motor vehicles getting segregated, but I suspect that is not what you mean.

I'm unclear what you mean by major roads here, are we talking major urban roads or cross country stuff?

But what I'd really like to understand are the circumstances where reclaiming urban spaces is impossible....

 

[blockend]

If you look at UK towns and cities over the last decade, some have certainly seen an increase in cycle use. However that is frequently from a nought-point-whatever starting position, or zero in layman's terms. It would take a particular viewpoint to find comfort in ten cycles an hour on a road where there used to be three, while a few thousand cars go by the same spot. That seems to me a perfectly valid gripe. Utility cycling in many places had become so paltry that a few intrepid neophytes can make the stats look revolutionary rather than as negligible as before.

I believe much of the country had cycling designed out of the highway in the 60s and 70s. This was by way of inner and outer ring roads, the very places a ride to work cyclist has to negotiate, along with a multi-laning, underpasses, larger roundabouts and a host of hazardous road developments. Unconditional legal access to such places is no access at all for most of the population, they were built with the express (sic) desire of speeding traffic from place to place. The cycle haven of the inner city with its congenial utopia, is guarded by some seriously uncompromising highway dystopia.
To realistically encourage utility cycling in such places you're going to have to design back in that which was taken out 40 years ago, or find alternatives.

 

[dellzeqq]

Make sure you're pootling in 'Primary Position' though ....

always, darling, always!

 

[Richard Mann]

Where else is utility cycling significant? Places like York and Hull and Gosport/Portsmouth and Boston (and various other east coast towns). One of the interesting things about Hull is that it's still really a hangover from the pre-car era, in contrast to middle-class cycling that's developed in the likes of Oxford and London.

Oxford still has working-class cycling - all wards have more than 8% cycling to work - but not nearly as much as the fifties, when half of Cowley cycled to the Morris works. Parts of Oxford certainly have the full range of journey purposes - work/education/shopping/visiting/leisure. The students, incidentally, mostly walk. However, utility cycling is fairly thin on the ground in Cowley - walking/bus tends to dominate - and the roads look as unloved as you'd expect in a lowish-density less-well-off area. Still much to be done!

I wouldn't say that utility cycling is expanding dramatically in many places - most of the feedback from the Cycle Demonstration Towns has been disappointing, but if you spend all your money on training and quiet routes, and next to nothing on adapting main roads, then whaddya expect?

Do I object to segregation on main (urban) roads: yes (except in a handful of situations where it links up quiet routes). It takes up space and money that we don't have, and pedestrians don't like it unless it's grossly over-engineered. I need to make common cause with pedestrians, residents and urbanists, and we do that by (slowly but surely) suppressing the car.

 

[Wobblers]

In Darwinian terms the riders currently on the roads are the ones who've evolved to cope with its trials. I don't believe most who can physically ride a bicycle have evolved to the extra level, nor should it be necessary to do so. Neither should those who have be setting the agenda. Once that reality sinks in to the campaigning mind, it's clear we shouldn't be forcing one size fits all strategies onto a variety of skill levels or road conditions. I don't see why utility cycling should be a physically or mentally elitist activity.

This, I'm afraid to say, is arrant nonsense. The overwhelming majority of people I see cycling in Birmingham potter around casually on BSOs or elderly mountain bikes. Not an uber-fit population of cyclists prepared to make battle with traffic. And Birmingham, I must point out, is one of the most car-orientated city in the country with a road structure that can be regarded as hostile to vulnerable road users.

 

[blockend]

I need to make common cause with pedestrians, residents and urbanists, and we do that by (slowly but surely) suppressing the car.

To replace the car would need a viable public transport alternative, or a sea change in suburban lifestyles. I don't mind jam tomorrow but it's been promised since I first read hippy magazines in alternative bookshops forty year ago and in the meantime car use has increased exponentially, not bikes.
My frustration is seeing the same well-meaning but misplaced idealism of the freaks and hairies played out by campaigners waiting for a car meltdown that never comes and poo-pooing alternatives that might actually make a difference because some bloke has written a martial cycling handbook.

 

[blockend]

This, I'm afraid to say, is arrant nonsense. The overwhelming majority of people I see cycling in Birmingham potter around casually on BSOs or elderly mountain bikes. Not an uber-fit population of cyclists prepared to make battle with traffic. And Birmingham, I must point out, is one of the most car-orientated city in the country with a road structure that can be regarded as hostile to vulnerable road users.

Have you any figures on utility cycling in Birmingham? I'm told by Brummie cyclists that it's almost non-existent compared to car use.

 

[jonesy]

To replace the car would need a viable public transport alternative, or a sea change in suburban lifestyles. I don't mind jam tomorrow but it's been promised since I first read hippy magazines in alternative bookshops forty year ago and in the meantime car use has increased exponentially, not bikes.
My frustration is seeing the same well-meaning but misplaced idealism of the freaks and hairies played out by campaigners waiting for a car meltdown that never comes and poo-pooing alternatives that might actually make a difference because some bloke has written a martial cycling handbook.

Any chance of you progressing beyond your straw men and insults to reading and responding to what people are actually posting?

 

[Richard Mann]

To replace the car would need a viable public transport alternative, or a sea change in suburban lifestyles.

You don't need to replace the car to suppress it, merely slow it down, charge for parking, and (in due course) restrict routes through central areas. And facilitate alternatives. If you go at it gently, there's a broad constituency that supports that.

 

[User482]

Blockend's pessimism is misplaced. I have in front of me the commuting stats for Bristol: 14% of commuters undertake their journeys by bicycle, which is just under half of the number who drive. Surely a significant cohort in anyone's book. Overall cycling levels are more than 50% above the 2003 baseline, and are still rising.Cycling facilities have also improved: whilst we have more than our fair share of poorly designed segregated facilities (think of lines down pavements), we also have some excellent dedicated facilities, much-expanded parking, and even perhaps a grudging acceptance from car drivers that we're not going away.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Blockend's pessimism is misplaced. I have in front of me the commuting stats for Bristol: 14% of commuters undertake their journeys by bicycle, which is just under half of the number who drive. Surely a significant cohort in anyone's book. Overall cycling levels are more than 50% above the 2003 baseline, and are still rising.Cycling facilities have also improved: whilst we have more than our fair share of poorly designed segregated facilities (think of lines down pavements), we also have some excellent dedicated facilities, much-expanded parking, and even perhaps a grudging acceptance from car drivers that we're not going away.

and a convoluted one way system in the city centre which hands significant advantage to the cyclist....

 

[GrumpyGregry]

My frustration is seeing the same well-meaning but misplaced idealism of the freaks and hairies played out by campaigners waiting for a car meltdown that never comes and poo-pooing alternatives that might actually make a difference because some bloke has written a martial cycling handbook.

The meltdown has started, car drivers are realising they are in danger of disappearing up their own exhaust pipes, once people switch off the motor and get out of the car they want to live and work and move in a convivial civilised space. Look at the list of places http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/

 

[subaqua]

The meltdown has started, car drivers are realising they are in danger of disappearing up their own exhaust pipes, once people switch off the motor and get out of the car they want to live and work and move in a convivial civilised space. Look at the list of places http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/

the roads in the immediate area where I live are 20mph limit. although i suspect that 99% of the drivers who use them are thinking thats the minimum speed. having the limit is one thing, enforcing it is another .

and please don't think for a minute i think they are a bad idea, they will work brilliantly when all motorists abide by the rules.

 

[blockend]

In spite of frequent provocation, only to be expected in a board that treats alternative opinions as a virus, I haven't insulted anyone. Unless your personal esteem is so intrinsically linked with your views on cycle campaigning that the two are indivisible.

I look forward to the tipping point for a critical mass of cyclists but doubt it will happen in my lifetime.

 

[Pista Weasel]

In spite of frequent provocation, only to be expected in a board that treats alternative opinions as a virus, I haven't insulted anyone. Unless your personal esteem is so intrinsically linked with your views on cycle campaigning that the two are indivisible.

I look forward to the tipping point for a critical mass of cyclists but doubt it will happen in my lifetime.

Glueman, is it really you?