Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

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MrHappyCyclist

Riding the Devil's HIghway
Location
Bolton, England
Reminding motorists cycles exist may be an important factor in the mind of the driver and the potential cyclist.
Absolutely correct, and there's nothing to stop that being done with proper cycle lanes that meet the guidelines that I have already quoted and referenced, so that they don't do more harm than good. See my posts above and earlier.

By the way, please accept my apologies for keep providing references and evidence to back up my arguments. It must be very annoying if you don't believe in the concept of evidence.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
actually the first clip tends to contradict you.....

but, yes, little skinny cycle lanes on roads with fast traffic are not perfect. Then again, riding in the primary slows eliminates the speedy straight line pass.......

(later edit) as does the second
(later edit) the third is a bit naughty, but, hey, that's life. When that's happened to me it's because I let it happen
(later edit) the fourth.........I don't know what point you're trying to make with this one
(later edit) stupid overtaking - but, then again, I'd have been further out
(later edit still) the person driving the blue car was naughty - and I think this is one of those times when the lane is counterproductive
 

MrHappyCyclist

Riding the Devil's HIghway
Location
Bolton, England
actually the first clip tends to contradict you.....
No it doesn't. It is quite likely that the presence of the cycle lane, which is too narrow, encouraged the truck driver to overtake where it wasn't safe. The presence of that cycle lane also makes me far more nervous about taking a stronger position, which I would otherwise have do.

In every one of those video clips, the drivers take the presence of the narrow cycle lane as carte blanche to ignore what it says in rule 163 of the highway code. (That's assuming they've even read the HC.)

Oh, and if you want more scientific, peer-reviewed evidence, then try this one.

The effect of cycle lanes on the proximity between motor traffic and cycle traffic John Parkin and Ciaran Meyers. Accident Analysis & Prevention Volume 42, Issue 1, January 2010, Pages 159-165.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
as you wish. To be honest none of the incidents you've recorded would have stuck in the memory
 

MrHappyCyclist

Riding the Devil's HIghway
Location
Bolton, England
To be honest none of the incidents you've recorded would have stuck in the memory
For a novice cyclist who is being enticed onto the roads by "cycle infrastructure provision"?

Thank you for the small concession in relation to the last clip.

(See the reference in my edited message above.)
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
I'm not defending the lane at all - but I didn't find anything exceptional or particularly disturbing about any of the passing. And I'd have been a bit further to the right - but it's your choice, not mine
 

MrHappyCyclist

Riding the Devil's HIghway
Location
Bolton, England
I'm not defending the lane at all - but I didn't find anything exceptional or particularly disturbing about any of the passing. And I'd have been a bit further to the right - but it's your choice, not mine
Ah, I'm not making myself clear. I cycle very close to the edge of the cycle lane in those examples; any further out and I would be out of the cycle lane. Cyclecraft advises that I should ignore the cycle lane and take up the road position that I would take in its absence. I'm tending to do that more as I am gaining both experience and fitness and the confidence that comes with those. If I do that, though, I do get quite a number of "punishment passes" for not using the cycle lane.

Now, linking back to the topic of the thread, the recommendations provided in Cyclecraft, which I think are fine in themselves, are seriously compromised by the presence of the inadequate cycle lane, and the whole package together is not going to encourage novices to take up cycling.
 

MrHappyCyclist

Riding the Devil's HIghway
Location
Bolton, England
Apologies for misrepresentation of my position accepted.
Sorry for that, it was unnecessary and not conducive to constructive debate. :sad:
 

blockend

New Member
Sorry for that, it was unnecessary and not conducive to constructive debate. :sad:

I'm not sure internet message boards are forums for debate so much as a place to exercise our hobby-horses. We may be convinced our's is a champion steeplechaser and form groups that agree the nag is a winner - while spiking the other chap's nosebag - but definitive evidence on a subject that's been all but written out of the serious transport agenda seems to suggest closer odds than people are admitting.

My point has always been that pretending to act like a six foot wide powered vehicle while riding a bike is useful so far as it goes, but is unlikely to carry the common herd. If you live where it does the best of British to you.
 

MrHappyCyclist

Riding the Devil's HIghway
Location
Bolton, England
I'm not sure internet message boards are forums for debate so much as a place to exercise our hobby-horses. We may be convinced our's is a champion steeplechaser and form groups that agree the nag is a winner - while spiking the other chap's nosebag -
I'm not so pessimistic about them myself; I think I have learned a lot by debating issues and hearing other people's points of view. I did feel the old Usenet News Group approach was better, though, with a proper threaded news reader, but everyone seems to want WYSISYG editors, pretty pictures and mouse-driven interfaces now. :angry:

but definitive evidence on a subject that's been all but written out of the serious transport agenda seems to suggest closer odds than people are admitting.
I have some sympathy with this concern. It can be hard to get ideas that are out of step investigated seriously - just look at the history of Herceptin, for example. Not sure whether it applies here, though; maybe, maybe not.

My point has always been that pretending to act like a six foot wide powered vehicle while riding a bike is useful so far as it goes, but is unlikely to carry the common herd. If you live where it does the best of British to you.
Well, I believe it has helped me, but then I am stubborn and pig-headed by nature, and perhaps a little obsessive.

I do agree, though, that Vehicular Cycling can be very scary to a newcomer in the current car-centric culture we have, with the majority of motorists feeling that the world is in their way, being unable to see past the next obstacle, and displaying a complete lack of patience. (Yes, I think this is the majority.)

However, I think that's a long way from concluding that Cyclecraft is to blame. If everyone were patient and courteous, drove at a sensible speed, and didn't take unreasonable risks, I think the principles expressed in Cyclecraft would be equally valid, and no longer scary. For example, primary position is not just about stopping pillocks from making stupid passes; it is also about visibility (on both vehicle's parts) and noticability, about staying away from the danger areas if someone were to make an honest mistake, etc.

It is the combination of driving attitudes, badly designed (car-centric) towns and cities (as discussed by dellzeqq), and poorly designed and harmful cycling "infrastructure" (hardly worthy of the name) that make it scary. Nothing about Cyclecraft conflicts with addressing those issues.

This is behind my beef with the current cycle lane provision; it is virtually all in direct conflict with the principles that Bikeability is trying to teach cyclists, especially young ones. In this sense, I feel that the "something" we have is indeed far worse than nothing.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
Ah, I'm not making myself clear. I cycle very close to the edge of the cycle lane in those examples; any further out and I would be out of the cycle lane. Cyclecraft advises that I should ignore the cycle lane and take up the road position that I would take in its absence. I'm tending to do that more as I am gaining both experience and fitness and the confidence that comes with those. If I do that, though, I do get quite a number of "punishment passes" for not using the cycle lane.

Now, linking back to the topic of the thread, the recommendations provided in Cyclecraft, which I think are fine in themselves, are seriously compromised by the presence of the inadequate cycle lane, and the whole package together is not going to encourage novices to take up cycling.
I appreciate that, and, to be honest, I still would cycle a little further to the right - to interrupt the flow of traffic. And, yes, I do think that the narrow cycle lane to the left can be counterproductive. It's just that I tend to ignore them.

I do think, however, that circumstances can be different. It's difficult to come up with an ironclad rule.
 

MrHappyCyclist

Riding the Devil's HIghway
Location
Bolton, England
I appreciate that, and, to be honest, I still would cycle a little further to the right - to interrupt the flow of traffic. And, yes, I do think that the narrow cycle lane to the left can be counterproductive. It's just that I tend to ignore them.
It's OK, I realize that you were taking issue with the examples that I showed, rather than with the arguments I was trying to put forward.
 
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