Cyclist vs. mororist - ?

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simongt

Guru
Location
Norwich
Grant Schapps nutty idea about cyclists being registered, made to have insurance etc., etc., has been knocked on the head as being unworkable; could have told him that couldn't we - ? :rofl:
However, for various reasons, there is still a lot of vitriol over cyclists vs. motorists with fault on both sides. On personal observation in this neck of the woods, the majority of cyclists regularily break the two 'usual' rules; riding on the footpath, even when there's a bus / taxi / cycle lane right beside them and ignoring red lights.
Today riding back home, I was stopped at a pelican crossing by a teenager who then proceeded to cycle over the crossing and carry on along the footpath on the other side of the road with a police car just behind me who completely ignored the situation - ! :whistle:
Observations of experience folks - ?
 

All uphill

Still rolling along
Location
Somerset
My observation is that 99.9% of the time motorists and cyclists coexist really well; however stoking these debates sells newsmedia.
 

sleuthey

Legendary Member
Grant Schapps nutty idea about cyclists being registered, made to have insurance etc., etc., has been knocked on the head as being unworkable; could have told him that couldn't we - ? :rofl:
However, for various reasons, there is still a lot of vitriol over cyclists vs. motorists with fault on both sides. On personal observation in this neck of the woods, the majority of cyclists regularily break the two 'usual' rules; riding on the footpath, even when there's a bus / taxi / cycle lane right beside them and ignoring red lights.
Today riding back home, I was stopped at a pelican crossing by a teenager who then proceeded to cycle over the crossing and carry on along the footpath on the other side of the road with a police car just behind me who completely ignored the situation - ! :whistle:
Observations of experience folks - ?

All the above part of everyday life in the Bristol suburbs.

I never cycle through red lights. I'll be honest though, whilst 99.9% of my mileage is done on the road I normally do a few meters On the pavement per commute to bypass various situations. This is because to remain motivated about taking the bike not the car there have to be perks to cycling.

Ref the topic, introduction of reg plates on push bikes takes away a perk and would lead to more cars less cyclists IMO
 

teeonethousand

Well-Known Member
Where I live/ride we have a lot of traffic pinch points and some very dodgy mini roundabouts in the towns that generally are riskier on a bike than ‘normal’ roads. I do sometimes switch to the path in order to keep myself safer and let the cars and vans etc get on with their day without waiting for me …..providing they are pedestrian free. I feel comfortable that it is a sensible decision and would defend that should anyone or ( on the off chance there is one) the police ever question it.
 
A lot of motorists don't know about shared use pavements and I see far more vehicles breaking the speed limit than I do bikes on pavements.
Motor vehicles are the danger.
 

icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
Today riding back home, I was stopped at a pelican crossing by a teenager who then proceeded to cycle over the crossing and carry on along the footpath on the other side of the road with a police car just behind me who completely ignored the situation - ! :whistle:
So lets suppose that they really had nothing better to do and wanted to have a word with said teenager. They sound the siren, pull over, exit the car.

Scenario 1: The Teenager is now no longer in sight. Do you want them to scramble a police helicopter for this incident?
Scenario 2: The kid stops. The police tell him off. He walks round the corner, gets back on his bike.
Scenario 3: The kid stops. The police want to issue a fixed penalty. The child is aged between 10 and 15 years old. The recommendations are that they will obtain the child's name and address and the name of their parents or legal guardian. Then they must then ensure that the parents / guardian are present whist the penalty is issued. This has now taken hours and prevented the Police from attending other calls.

Additionally, what purpose has the stop served? Was the pavement busy? Was the teen cycling dangerously? Was the road a dangerous one whereby the teen may have been safer cycling on the pavement?

The Police do occasionally take action against pavement cycling and red light jumpers. When I used to commute to London Bridge, a couple of cycle police used to lurk near the junction of Sumner Street and Southwark Street and issue FPNs to red light jumpers. Additionally when I was nearly run off the road by a black cab, along with another cyclist on Concert Hall Approach and submitted video to the police, I got a nice letter back from the Met admonishing me for travelling from the end of the road, round to the station on the pavement very slowly after speaking to the cab driver. So it's good to know they have their priorities right! Clearly my being very shaken and travelling 30 seconds at about 7mph on an almost unused bit of pavement was the important bit.
 

icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
It's also worth noting that these conversations often come up, but no-one ever says

"I was on the Motorway today and so many cars were doing over 70mph. Why don't the Police do something about it - there was a police car on the motorway and he ignored people who were clearly doing 80mph".

The simple answer is that the law isn't about applying rules absolutely in every circumstance. This is why we refer to law and order. If the law is being broken but there is no disorder, no-one suffering and no-one out of pocket, if there are no inherent dangers, then it may be politic to apply resources where other more serious problems exist.
 

presta

Guru
I have tried repeatedly, and largely failed, to draw cyclists attention to the fact that stopping a bike wastes energy, in fact I've even been lampooned by a cyclist for being an idiot who can't see that if you're stationary you're not using any energy at all.

The point is that cyclists (and any other moving mass) have kinetic energy, and when you stop, the brakes waste that energy by converting it into heat. All that waste energy came from your leg muscles, so when you resume moving it has to be replaced by your legs too: stop more often, waste more energy.

So is that a lot? Well, a lot is a subjective term, but if you stop every 100m from 12mph that's roughly doubling your energy use. Twice as much.

The corollary of all this is that cyclists will avoid stopping. They often aren't consciously aware that they're averse to stopping, and even less aware the reason why, but they are.

"Cyclists all jump red lights!"
My experience is that this is a lot more frequent in large cities, I've seen more RLJs in the time it takes to eat my breakfast at Bristol YHA, or walk up Deansgate in Manchester, than I have in a lifetime living in a provincial market town in East Anglia. This surprises me not at all. If I want to get out of the built up area and cycle free of traffic lights, I can be out of town in about 1.5m, under 10 minutes, but on the other hand, if I lived in central Manchester I wouldn't have the range to get out of the city at all, my entire cycling career would consist of stop-start riding. That would be enough to make me give up cycling altogether, never mind jump red lights.

"Cyclists weave in and out of the traffic!"
Stops for traffic queues can be a lot closer spaced than traffic lights, it's the same problem but more so.

"Cyclists campaign for cycle paths, and then they don't use them!"
Most cycle paths require that cyclists defer to the traffic at every side road, and in a built up area they are spaced about 100m apart, so if you build facilities that require cyclists to use double the amount of energy, either they won't use them, or they won't stop. Someone once suggested that this can all be solved by putting subways at every junction. Well, apart from the fact that doing so would consume the entire DoT budget for decades, climbing 3m out of a subway uses double the energy of getting moving again after a stop.

I don't have energy to waste, but I have the choice to cycle outside built up areas, and I avoid cycle paths like the plague when I don't. (I don't have any truck with motorists calling me lazy when they're the ones who can't be bothered parting their bum from a car seat)

I was stopped at a pelican crossing by a teenager who then proceeded to cycle over the crossing and carry on along the footpath on the other side of the road with a police car just behind me who completely ignored the situation

99% of the pedestrians killed whilst on the pavement are killed by motor vehicles, not cyclists.

In general, cyclists are responsible for just 2 road deaths a year, compared with 1700 killed by motor vehicles, so if the police were to have a blitz on enforcement against them they would never fix more than 0.13% of the problem, no matter how much money was spent.

So the police insist that chasing cyclists is a waste of taxpayer's money:
"Now for those who will no doubt be spitting out their finest percolated roasted bean brew at this moment screaming “what about the cyclists!” well…….statistical analysis shows they aren’t to blame, innocent in the majority of KSI collisions it would be a waste of our time, and thus public time and money to concentrate on cyclist behaviour. The figures speak for themselves…….driver’s don’t let your prejudices get in the way of the truth"
 

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Deleted member 26715

Guest
The simple answer is that the law isn't about applying rules absolutely in every circumstance. This is why we refer to law and order. If the law is being broken but there is no disorder, no-one suffering and no-one out of pocket, if there are no inherent dangers, then it may be politic to apply resources where other more serious problems exist.
It appears you are advocating it's acceptable to do 70mph in a 30mph zone as long as nobody sees you?
 
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