Cyclists - Please stop at red lights

[PK99]

That is not answering the question though, is it? That is fine as an individual but it doesn't address the problem at source.

The problem at source - the initiating error in the chain of events leading to a cyclist being squished by a left turning lorry - is sometimes the cyclist failing to follow the guidance of Cyclecraft and stopping hard to the left of the left lane at the junction or passing on the inside of the lorry stopped at the junction.

 

[Red Light]

[QUOTE 1845372, member: 45"]You've got completely the wrong end of the stick, and are making the ridiculous suggestion that people who are not capable of riding safely within current road restrictions would be safer following the suggestion not to obey red lights.

Have a serious think about what you're saying.[/quote]

Why do you think its either/or and not both? There is no evidence that RLJing is dangerous for cyclists. The world is not asymmetrical as you seem to assume with it all being the result of unwise actions by the cyclist going down and stopping on the inside. Cyclists are also placed in danger by lorry drivers' actions and that appears to be the dominant problem. Even holding primary as you keep stating doesn't help - there are plenty of cases of lorries pulling up behind a cyclist who is then in the blind spot in front of the cab and gets forgotten. In those circumstances a red light jump may well save someone from a much greater danger. Cyclist deaths from lorries are many many times those from red light jumping despite red light jumping being a very common occurrence (about one in five cyclists) and encounters with lorries at traffic lights being relatively rare (between 1 and 5% of vehicles on the roads in London depending on how you define a "lorry").

You seem to think that there is one and only one answer to this and that is not the case. Red light jumping could save many many more cyclists than it kills even with all your Cyclecraft rules.

 

[Red Light]

The problem at source - the initiating error in the chain of events leading to a cyclist being squished by a left turning lorry - is sometimes the cyclist failing to follow the guidance of Cyclecraft and stopping hard to the left of the left lane at the junction or passing on the inside of the lorry stopped at the junction.

Sometimes. And for the rest of the time what is your solution?

 

[Red Light]

No hgv driver ever pulls up alongside me in the same lane - but then again i do put myself in Primary Position

What about directly behind you placing you in their blindspot in front of the cab?

 

[Brandane]

Nonsense. Lorries routinely display signs warning cyclists not to go up the inside. Suggest that a lorry driver should refrain from duplicating the exact same juxtaposition by overtaking and you will encounter blank incomprehension.

That is not what you were asking. You asked

And the program to achieve the former, how is it going?

referring to:

We need to educate lorry drivers not to pull up alongside cyclists at junctions, and cyclists not to go up the inside of lorries and to take primary at junctions. It's not an either-or.

So my reply is not nonsense. How is the program to achieve education of cyclists going? Other than sticking warning signs on the rear left side of HGVs of course, which is done by haulage companies.

 

[PK99]

What about directly behind you placing you in their blindspot in front of the cab?

In fact I can never recall that happening, but if it did i would roll forward our of the blind spot

 

[Brandane]

It is nonsense, there is no general program to educate lorry drivers not to pull up alongside cyclists.
The other way round is well publicised with warnings on the backs and sides of commercial vehicles.

Really? I suggest you read a copy of the DSA official publication "Driving goods vehicles, the official DSA syllabus" (ISBN 0-11-552485-1).
I am sitting with my copy in front of me right now. I can recommend pages 14, 15, 28, 86, 88, 91, 128, 177, 183, and 192; all of which refer to cyclists.

If you want, I will quote bits of it later when I have more time .

 

[PK99]

It is nonsense, there is no general program to educate lorry drivers not to pull up alongside cyclists.
The other way round is well publicised with warnings on the backs and sides of commercial vehicles.

http://www.hackney.gov.uk/HGV-CPC.htm

 

[her_welshness]

It is nonsense, there is no general program to educate lorry drivers not to pull up alongside cyclists.
The other way round is well publicised with warnings on the backs and sides of commercial vehicles.

And a great one from one HGV on the Embankment the other day 'beep beep, this vehicle is turning left, beep beep, this vehicle is turning left'. It really focusses your attention to it!

Like others have expressed on here I do not like the assumption from other cyclists who believe that with responsible road positioning you can prevent yourself from being squished. A girl in my office a few years ago got crushed by a HGV. She was in the ASL going straight on and the HGV was turning left. Nothing she could have done about it. If you go up St John Street in London you can see the ghost bike there. The HGV driver did not see her. You sit up in one of those HGV cabs and you can see why. I can't help but think that she may be alive today if she had heard that 'this vehicle is turning left beep beep'.

 

[CopperBrompton]

And the program to achieve the former, how is it going?

I don't know as I always take primary if I arrive first at lights, so I don't give HGVs the chance to get alongside me.

Which is for me the pragmatic answer: I have no control over what other road-users do, but I can control what I do. Arguing about who is right/wrong, or what proportion of blame falls to each party in these accidents, is kind of futile. As a cyclist, I want the ability to ensure I don't get into a situation where it can happen.

 

[PK99]

And a great one from one HGV on the Embankment the other day 'beep beep, this vehicle is turning left, beep beep, this vehicle is turning left'. It really focusses your attention to it!

Like others have expressed on here I do not like the assumption from other cyclists who believe that with responsible road positioning you can prevent yourself from being squished. A girl in my office a few years ago got crushed by a HGV. She was in the ASL going straight on and the HGV was turning left. Nothing she could have done about it. If you go up St John Street in London you can see the ghost bike there. The HGV driver did not see her. You sit up in one of those HGV cabs and you can see why. I can't help but think that she may be alive today if she had heard that 'this vehicle is turning left beep beep'.

You cannot prevent, but you can avoid increasing the risk. There will always be occasions where it is 100% the HGV drivers fault, but every time i cycle in central London i see behaviour by cyclists at junctions in the vicinity of HGVs that is the very antithesis of assertive defensive cycling.

 

[CopperBrompton]

What we don't have is the same level of effort being directed at making the dangerous less so.

What's your evidence for that? Personally I've seen material aimed at each, but I have no way to quantify the relative efforts.

 

[PK99]

So why do people who have learned all that kill cyclists?

Why do so many cyclists audition for Darwin Awards?
http://www.sillycyclists.co.uk/

 

[her_welshness]

You cannot prevent, but you can avoid increasing the risk. There will always be occasions where it is 100% the HGV drivers fault, but every time i cycle in central London i see behaviour by cyclists at junctions in the vicinity of HGVs that is the very antithesis of assertive defensive cycling.

Quite, preventative measures are good. But, I do not blame the HGV drivers. I don't think that anyone is. As the HGV driver told me when I stepped up into his cab, they have a multitude of mirrors to look into and a very big blind spot. Rebecca (the girl that died on the corner of St John Street and Old Street) was in that blind spot. The HGV didn't see her. That wasn't his fault. It wasn't her fault too as she was in the ASL, she was doing what she was supposed to be doing. Can we do something about this? Yes, we bloody well can.

 

[her_welshness]

Which is all well and good, but is still all about transferring responsibility from the cause of the danger to the victims.

I agree. Although it did save Jane's/Sairose's life a few years ago as she can attest to. Not getting squished = a good thing.