Does the Home Office know what an eBike/EAPC actually is?

[Bristolian]

I saw this on YT yesterday which confused me as I thought that if an electric bike had a full throttle it was automatically a motorbike. Apparently my understanding of the EAPC regulations were wrong, or have I missed something subtle?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lonnBqEMbA&t=386s

 

[classic33]

I saw this on YT yesterday which confused me as I thought that if an electric bike had a full throttle it was automatically a motorbike. Apparently my understanding of the EAPC regulations were wrong, or have I missed something subtle?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lonnBqEMbA&t=386s

Basically the same as Wisper bikes. Their bikes are put through the MVSA, which sees them reclassified as light mopeds.

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/reviews/folding-e-bike/pedibal-navigata-with-throttle-5845

 

[Alex321]

Basically the same as Wisper bikes. Their bikes are put through the MVSA, which sees them reclassified as light mopeds.

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/reviews/folding-e-bike/pedibal-navigata-with-throttle-5845

The MVSA is only for individual bikes which don't have type approval.

The ones being talked about in the video do have type approval.

 

[classic33]

The MVSA is only for individual bikes which don't have type approval.

The ones being talked about in the video do have type approval.

You could put your own bike through the same test, but you've to find a testing station that can deal with bicycles. They're few and far between.

Which is exactly what Wisper bikes do, which is put their bikes through on an individual basis. Even Pedibal say this much.

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/n...s-can-legally-be-ridden-without-a-licence-and
"That £200 means Pedibal will organise a type approval certificate that legalises the bike for yo. This involves taking it to a DVSA test centre which requires booking in advance - hence the quoted 2-5 week lead time for this service."

 

[bonzobanana]

The throttle legislation is an unworkable mess and should never have been implemented at all as its ridiculous to prevent use of throttles when its the default power control for most ebikes in the world and provides maximum safety and control.

However if the ebike throttle is twist and go up to only 6km/h it is legal with regard EU regulations.

If the throttle only operates only when pedalling its legal up to 15.5mph assistance speed with regard EU regulations.

If the ebike was purchased before 2017 its still legal to use today twist and go throttle up to 15.5mph

As above posts if the bike is individually DVSA tested it is legal to have twist and go throttle up to 15.5mph.

If its an ebike kit according to the Department for transport its is legal according to this but this is more a grey area but the clarification did come from the Department for Transport.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/


What an utter waste of resources for the police to be confiscating any ebike with a throttle that operates at 15.5mph or below. Laws should be in the interest of consumers and safety not just some random nonsense someone makes up. There is no evidence to support any safety implication of having a working throttle on a ebike. It only goes to 15.5mph a fraction of the maximum speed of a bicycle unassisted on flats or downhill.

We really should be completely ignoring this EU nonsense and just allowing working throttles up to 15.5mph although personally I think it should be 20mph in line with our urban speed limit on many roads.

You wonder how the police are meant to remember all this nonsense that politicians and regulators have allowed. A simple no throttle assistance above 17mph (10% tolerance) is really the only test they should be doing and just making sure a working drivetrain with pedals is fitted.

 

[classic33]

The throttle legislation is an unworkable mess and should never have been implemented at all as its ridiculous to prevent use of throttles when its the default power control for most ebikes in the world and provides maximum safety and control.

However if the ebike throttle is twist and go up to only 6km/h it is legal with regard EU regulations.

If the throttle only operates only when pedalling its legal up to 15.5mph assistance speed with regard EU regulations.

If the ebike was purchased before 2017 its still legal to use today twist and go throttle up to 15.5mph

As above posts if the bike is individually DVSA tested it is legal to have twist and go throttle up to 15.5mph.

If its an ebike kit according to the Department for transport its is legal according to this but this is more a grey area but the clarification did come from the Department for Transport.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/


What an utter waste of resources for the police to be confiscating any ebike with a throttle that operates at 15.5mph or below. Laws should be in the interest of consumers and safety not just some random nonsense someone makes up. There is no evidence to support any safety implication of having a working throttle on a ebike. It only goes to 15.5mph a fraction of the maximum speed of a bicycle unassisted on flats or downhill.

We really should be completely ignoring this EU nonsense and just allowing working throttles up to 15.5mph although personally I think it should be 20mph in line with our urban speed limit on many roads.

You wonder how the police are meant to remember all this nonsense that politicians and regulators have allowed. A simple no throttle assistance above 17mph (10% tolerance) is really the only test they should be doing and just making sure a working drivetrain with pedals is fitted.

The new rules/regulations were brought in Europe wide, to standardise the rules. This meant that if taking your cycle from one country to another, you're cycle, if legal in one country would be legal in the adjoining countries.

Where the UK differed from the rest of Europe is that they didn't accept the throttle only option, or the higher speed limit under the regulations.

Police in Leeds have been pulling them for not pedaling whilst the bike is moving. Birmingham police have been checking the throttle for cut-off speed. Above walk assist speed they've been removing them from their riders.

 

[Electric_Andy]

Too much time has passed now for people to use the precise and correct terms. Other examples include using the term "moped" when you actually mean scooter. I still have to explain to my partner that not all mopeds are scooters, and not all scooters are mopeds

 

[Electric_Andy]

Also, if regulatory bodies refer to them (properly) as electric motorcycles, most people would assume they were talking about traditional motorcycle design i.e. not mountain bikes that will do 50mph

 

[Drago]

Also, if regulatory bodies refer to them (properly) as electric motorcycles, most people would assume they were talking about traditional motorcycle design i.e. not mountain bikes that will do 50mph

If they'd set the correct narrative early on that wouldn't be a problem.

 

[bonzobanana]

The new rules/regulations were brought in Europe wide, to standardise the rules. This meant that if taking your cycle from one country to another, you're cycle, if legal in one country would be legal in the adjoining countries.

Where the UK differed from the rest of Europe is that they didn't accept the throttle only option, or the higher speed limit under the regulations.

Police in Leeds have been pulling them for not pedaling whilst the bike is moving. Birmingham police have been checking the throttle for cut-off speed. Above walk assist speed they've been removing them from their riders.

Obviously before we adopted the EU ebike legislation the previous UK legislation allowed twist and go throttles that is the grandfather/legacy rights of why people who bought their ebike before 2017 can still legally ride it today despite its twist and go throttle. When people complained about the lack of throttle options for disabled, elderly etc the UK came up with this new DVSA individually tested ebikes legislation to allow them to still have twist and go throttles hence the Pedibal/Woosh etc ebikes that are individually tested which pretty much is a return to the previous pre-EU ebike certification. However I've occasionally read on sites that its clear the Police don't actually understand the legislation fully and you can hardly blame them its a complete mess. However to end consumers this is very worrying when they are riding a completely legal ebike that is allowed a twist and go throttle and the Police may effectively steal your legal ebike.

As I said before the UK should do its own ebike certification with true wattage figures, complete allowance of throttle control up to the assistance speed and assistance speed of up to 20mph as per our urban road speed limit. If we are to incorporate EU ebike certification within it we will need to set a maximum wattage of about 1000W which is the highest sustained wattage figure for many so called 250W EU certified ebikes. For example many e-mountain bikes that deliver 100Nm or more torque. We need to get away from the fake and misleading EU certification that was written as a trade barrier with commercial bias. Really we need to move away from stop/start assistance of cadence sensors which can be dangerous especially those simple models that give full power when you rotate the crank. If you are elderly or disabled you need power immediately when you set off not delayed especially on hills. Surely the ability to simply control power as much or as little as you need for the circumstances is the ultimate power control system for an ebike and the most used system around the world for ebikes.

 

[Drago]

Theres already an option for those that want 20mph assistance- a speed pedelec or a moped.

As crap as the legislation is the 15.5mph assistance cut off is about right for a licence free system. You dont want a higher speed differential mixing it up with peds on shared paths and the like.

For those that do fancy a little more an easily accessible and relatively inexpensive option already exists. Anyone thst cant be arsed with the minimal CBT, tax and insurance requirements probably isn't the sort of person that can be trusted to stick to the rules with a licence exempt system anyway.

 

[Dadam]

I've liked both comments above as I think there are valid arguments on both sides, and getting it right is always going to be a tricky balancing act.
On the one hand having more, heavier bikes going at 20mph on shared paths, would definitely cause issues.
On the other, having used legal ebikes for commuting for several years now, being able to keep up with traffic at 20mph when tired, in a headwind or uphill would feel safer on the road. It would reduce bad passes in my opinion and it would encourage more people to drop the car for commuting and utility riding. Also, it would reduce the temptation to illegally modify their bikes in the first place, which someone is prepared to take the risk, why would they bother just upping the limiter to 20, they just have it removed.

There are counter arguments too. The fact that people normal bikes can and do go >20mph on shared paths anyway, especially downhill. The fact that there's not enough enforcement as it is for those using the obviously illegal motorcycles on shared paths.

 

[Drago]

They can and do, but how many, how long and how often? Its the exception, and itll become the dangerous rule if so accessible.

Want to go quicker? The option already exists. The cut off point has to be somewhere, and a little shy of existing and easily accessible licenced options is a sensible place to do it.

 

[classic33]

Obviously before we adopted the EU ebike legislation the previous UK legislation allowed twist and go throttles that is the grandfather/legacy rights of why people who bought their ebike before 2017 can still legally ride it today despite its twist and go throttle. When people complained about the lack of throttle options for disabled, elderly etc the UK came up with this new DVSA individually tested ebikes legislation to allow them to still have twist and go throttles hence the Pedibal/Woosh etc ebikes that are individually tested which pretty much is a return to the previous pre-EU ebike certification. However I've occasionally read on sites that its clear the Police don't actually understand the legislation fully and you can hardly blame them its a complete mess. However to end consumers this is very worrying when they are riding a completely legal ebike that is allowed a twist and go throttle and the Police may effectively steal your legal ebike.

As I said before the UK should do its own ebike certification with true wattage figures, complete allowance of throttle control up to the assistance speed and assistance speed of up to 20mph as per our urban road speed limit. If we are to incorporate EU ebike certification within it we will need to set a maximum wattage of about 1000W which is the highest sustained wattage figure for many so called 250W EU certified ebikes. For example many e-mountain bikes that deliver 100Nm or more torque. We need to get away from the fake and misleading EU certification that was written as a trade barrier with commercial bias. Really we need to move away from stop/start assistance of cadence sensors which can be dangerous especially those simple models that give full power when you rotate the crank. If you are elderly or disabled you need power immediately when you set off not delayed especially on hills. Surely the ability to simply control power as much or as little as you need for the circumstances is the ultimate power control system for an ebike and the most used system around the world for ebikes.

Having tried between 2006 and 2009, under the old regulations, to get my quadricycle through the then SVA, to enable an uphill speed of little over walking speed to be used on electric assist, for when it's carrying/pulling a load, I can say that the test itself is nothing new. My problems arose because the old regulations only went up to three wheels. Ridden into one testing station, for a booked test, led to me being told they weren't qualified to do it.
Previous checks before paying for the test all indicated they'd be able to handle it.

The old regulations also had a lower power motor, how many people with e-assist bikes currently would settle now for a lower power motor? If you want a cut-off speed higher than the current regulations, that option is available to you. It's just going to cost you to do so. Even then there's restrictions on what is allowed. Restrictions which I can't see many wanting to put up with for the sake of riding a bicycle.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Having tried between 2006 and 2009, under the old regulations, to get my quadricycle through the then SVA, to enable an uphill speed of little over walking speed to be used on electric assist, for when it's carrying/pulling a load, I can say that the test itself is nothing new. My problems arose because the old regulations only went up to three wheels. Ridden into one testing station, for a booked test, led to me being told they weren't qualified to do it.
Previous checks before paying for the test all indicated they'd be able to handle it.

The old regulations also had a lower power motor, how many people with e-assist bikes currently would settle now for a lower power motor? If you want a cut-off speed higher than the current regulations, that option is available to you. It's just going to cost you to do so. Even then there's restrictions on what is allowed. Restrictions which I can't see many wanting to put up with for the sake of riding a bicycle.

Yes - the previous ebike regulations allowed for a throttle but had a max power of 200W and not the current 250W

I had one (Powacycle Salisbury) and it was great - power from the motor was rated as 180W but it worked well

When I got a new ebike I decided to try it out on a steep dusty path that I was about 50:50 to get up on my old bike
either I ran out of energy in my legs or the rear wheel slipped on the dust and teh bike stopped

I was amazed that the new bike just shot up it with no problems
so the current power increase was pretty noticeable!

but the motors are more sophisticated and have different power levels - by old bike has 2 power setting - on and off and the switch was a key down behind the seat post and unreachable when riding

It did have a throttle which was very nice to have but I generally just pedalled slowly and the rather unsubtle control system pushed the motor up to full power

My current system is Bosch - the walk assist system was rubbish until a recent update
it is fiddly and a bit of a Vulcan nerve pinch to use it but it does work
up to about 3-4 mph

I would support the concept of a throttle up to the assists limit - but mainly for disabled people who are not bad enough to need a mobility scooter
otehr than that I think the current regs are OK - if they are enforced and Police know what they are doing
e.g. turn my bike over and there is a plate
if I have that and the wheel magnet and detector are in the right place
plus no throttle (or a document showing it is authorised)
then that is all they need
If they want to crack down then a treadmill type thing to check the speed limit and WA limit would be done
but for a one off check the above would catch most illegal bikes out