E Van- the future?

[classic33]

Both the Vok bike in the video and the CityQ bike from an earlier thread are chainless. Vok call it pedal by wire, CityQ call it software based drivetrain.

You pedal a generator and the generator powers the motor (a bit like a diesel-electric loco). There's no mechanical connection pedal to wheel. The bike's power management system keeps an eye on your output and chips in with assist as and when necessary.

How often does it decide that no assist is necessary I wonder. Not very often I suspect. How practical is it to ride it with no assist? Very hard I would guess, especially when loaded. In fact ...

To be an EAPC it must "be fitted with pedals that can propel it". So I suppose technically it's an EAPC (provided it also has max continuous rated power <=250W and cuts out at 25kph) , but I imagine it would be very slow and very tiring to actually use those pedals alone.

It seems like it's sneaking in on a technicality.

That is what I'm wondering, and at present the answers aren't very promising with regards distance. Battery seems to be needed all the time, with power coming from the battery alone.

I've used the Brox Quad, with heavier loads. On the flat/slight inclines it's not too bad, once you realise you've to put that bit of extra effort in.

 

[Dogtrousers]

That is what I'm wondering, and at present the answers aren't very promising with regards distance. Battery seems to be needed all the time, with power coming from the battery alone.

Doesn't that make it fail the "fitted with pedals that can propel it" EAPC test?

 

[classic33]

Doesn't that make it fail the "fitted with pedals that can propel it" EAPC test?

Awaiting an answer on that one. But if they can't be moved by pedal power alone, I'd say it's a fail. And a trip to the nearest testing station for the MVSA.
Think it may even fall outside the current EU regulations on pedal assisted electric cycles.

 

[Drago]

Its supposed to be electrically assisted, ie, electricity assisting the rider to pedal.

This, if im interpreting it correctly, is pretty much the other way round so under a strict interpretation of the regs I cant see it being legal.

 

[N0bodyOfTheGoat]

I'm assuming that the 30 mile range wasn't done fully loaded, or in any hilly terrain, and that should the battery die on you, you're stuck.

The range of any ebike marketing I've seen to date isn't standardised, giving a distance is near on impossible.

In a headwind, the distance a given level of motor assistance will get you will be lowered.
For a given assist level, lighter riders will cover more distance up a moutain while staying under 25kph, due to higher W/Kg.
The ability of a rider to produce enough power to stay above the motor cutoff speed of 25kph of a UK road legal ebike, on a close to pancake flat route, will vary.
Etc.

 

[classic33]

The range of any ebike marketing I've seen to date isn't standardised, giving a distance is near on impossible.

In a headwind, the distance a given level of motor assistance will get you will be lowered.
For a given assist level, lighter riders will cover more distance up a moutain while staying under 25kph, due to higher W/Kg.
The ability of a rider to produce enough power to stay above the motor cutoff speed of 25kph of a UK road legal ebike, on a close to pancake flat route, will vary.
Etc.

Aware of the load reducing the range, but they have quoted 30 mile range with a full load. I've assumed they mean on almost flat ground though.

Given the high-sided design, you'd be "sailing" on a windy day. Used a Brox for advertising purposes, where the sides met, in the centre, at the top. Not two vertical sides that'll catch any breeze. Great for tailwinds.

Stopping, and the ability to stop safely when hauling possibly three times your own weight, is a bigger concern than top speed.

 

[SteveH80]

Lightweight electric delivery vehicles (almost) like this are a fantastic idea, but pretending they are bicycles isn't.
We're in a situation where the legal framework is so far behind the technology it's ludicrous, but as the technology is evolving quickly and the legal process takes time inevitable.

 

[Drago]

Or is the legislation fine (if needlessly complicated) and manufacturers are wilfully taking the pith?

If people are disobeying legislation then introducing new legislation for them to ignore is not the answer. Robust enforcement is the answer.

 

[Alex321]

If it is pedal assist, then it falls outside the UK regulations, which is Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle not pedal assist.

Any clues as to what you think the difference is that causes the use of very slightly different wording to mean it is a completely different machine?

 

[classic33]

The subject of this thread is another pedal by wire vehicle. With no direct chain drive available to propel it when up to speed. I'm assuming that the top speed will also be limited to 15 mph by this fact.
It is only usable whilst the battery is fitted and charged. Meaning the 30 mile stated range requires at least one extra battery is almost a necessity, given the charging time.

A trial ride could set you back £7,000+(non returnable) as their dealers have to get hold of them at your request, which cost them.

The battery certification issue mentioned earlier is certification for American market. Not a general certification problem as given earlier.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Lightweight electric delivery vehicles (almost) like this are a fantastic idea, but pretending they are bicycles isn't.
We're in a situation where the legal framework is so far behind the technology it's ludicrous, but as the technology is evolving quickly and the legal process takes time inevitable.

I don't think the legal framework is "ludicrous". It's pretty simple and clear. However these vehicles are testing the limits.

Are they ...

• pedal cycles with two or more wheels. Yes, I suppose so.
• fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled Yes, if you don't mind going very slowly due to the inefficiency of the non-mechanical drivetrain, and only providing that the battery isn't flat.
• fitted with a motor which has a maximum continuous rated power [as defined by (EU) No 168/2013] which does not exceed 250 watts. Yes
• fitted with a motor which cannot propel the vehicle when it is travelling at more than 15.5 miles per hour. Yes

So they seem to just about tick all the boxes. But how should the legislation be tweaked. What exactly is the problem here. Is it the pedal by wire bit? Should the "pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled" bit be made more specific? And what potential knock-on effects would any such changes have.

For instance, if it was worded so as to exclude "pedal by wire" it would exclude any future design for a normal two wheeled bike, one person, non cargo that worked on this principle. Is that the real intent?

Or is our reaction because they look too much like vans. If the pedal by wire principle was applied to an ordinary cargo bike, would that be ok?

 

[classic33]

I don't think the legal framework is "ludicrous". It's pretty simple and clear. However these vehicles are testing the limits.

Are they ...

• pedal cycles with two or more wheels. Yes, I suppose so.
• fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled Yes, you don't mind going very slowly due to the inefficiency of the non-mechanical drivetrain, and only providing that the battery isn't flat.
• fitted with a motor which has a maximum continuous rated power [as defined by (EU) No 168/2013] which does not exceed 250 watts. Yes
• fitted with a motor which cannot propel the vehicle when it is travelling at more than 15.5 miles per hour. Yes

So they seem to just about tick all the boxes. But how should the legislation be tweaked. What exactly is the problem here. Is it the pedal by wire bit? Should the "pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled" bit be made more specific? And what potential knock-on effects would any such changes have.

For instance, if it was worded so as to exclude "pedal by wire" it would exclude any future design for a normal two wheeled bike, one person, non cargo that worked on this principle. Is that the real intent?

Or is our reaction because they look too much like vans. If the pedal by wire principle was applied to an ordinary cargo bike, would that be ok?

Using this one as an example
Are they ...

• pedal cycles with two or more wheels.
• Yes, but I'd dispute the pedal cycle part
• fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled
• Yes, but the battery has to be in place to be able for those pedals to propel the cycle. No battery/dead battery you can't move it by means of pedal power. So I'd question the pedal power part. What happens if a bad connection cuts the power momentarily in traffic.
• With a direct link between pedals and wheel(s) via a chain(s), you could at least carry on.
• fitted with a motor which has a maximum continuous rated power [as defined by (EU) No 168/2013] which does not exceed 250 watts.
• It's fitted with four 250 watt motors, continuous rated output. Making it illegal under UK law, total 1000 watt motor input in total. EU law wouldn't automatically class it a pedal cycle under the same regulations. Separate classification, with extra regulations in both cases.
• fitted with a motor which cannot propel the vehicle when it is travelling at more than 15.5 miles per hour. No
• Fitted with four motors, one to each wheel. Giving a maximum speed of 15.5 miles per hour, which at times can be too slow in traffic given the width of the cycle.