Efficacy vs Necessity

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OP
OP
jonny jeez

jonny jeez

Legendary Member
You could have a "formula" for the value of a helmet.
  • a the chances of coming off
  • b the injury during an off
  • c the chances of the injury occurring to a part of the head that is protected by your helmet.
  • d the chances of that injury having having a life altering effect, permanently or temporarily.
  • e the chances of a helmet making a difference, turning a life changing or ending injury into a less serious injury or no injury at all.
  • f the chances of you having no other fatal injury (ie even a mythical "perfect" helmet is of no value if you are crushed under a HGV)
@jonny jeez is right, mostly we focus on e, but we should look more closely at the others. Because even if e was 1, it still might not mean we should wear helmets.

In my post above, I was only discussing a.

From a separate thread, we can see that a is not as small as suggested in the original post, though I suspect it varies with rider skill, style, riding conditions and of course mileage. So I will probably end up coming off most years at least once, and @jonny jeez may never come off again. So for me, the chances of having an off on a 50km ride are something like 1/100.

I've got a bit less 50,000km on strava and I've hit my head once. So I will estimate a x b x c on a 50km ride about 0.1%.

Oh. That's higher than I would have guessed :sad: I'll think about that for a bit.

Aside: That single head injury occurred without a helmet, but I didn't meet the criteria for concussion, nor did I suffer any ill effects except for the aforementioned black eye, so by my standards a helmet would have made no difference. For the record, I believe a helmet would have prevented the black eye, as the blow was to my temple, and the large bruise drained into my eye socket and stayed there for several very ugly days, but as my arm was in a sling at the time, the black eye was the least of my worries.
This is exactly my point, you have explained it better than me though.
 
You seem to be talking like you can't do anything to reduce the rate of coming off - is that really true?
No.
 

KnackeredBike

I do my own stunts
You seem to be talking like you can't do anything to reduce the rate of coming off - is that really true?
No, good Cyclecraft means you can avoid most collisions which is the basis of H&S in workplaces, you should try to minimise the risk before you start providing PPE to protect people. Avoiding is better than protecting.

I make mini-KB wear a helmet because her Cyclecraft skills are inevitably less developed than mine.
 

Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
I think we've seen a transition from cycling primarily as transport to cycling primarily as recreation/fitness/ sport (sort of a continuum) and this has coincided with the rise of the hat.

Falling off is a relatively common thing for cyclists, if @jefmcg 's thread is anything to go by. Thankfully the number involving head injuries seems to be low ( but - full disclosure - I am in the head injury group)

So ... You are likely to fall off at some time. You are more likely to bang your hips or elbows than your head.

None of that answers the OPs question of whether they are needed because to do that you'd need to consider whether they work, and the thread would melt.

Why do I wear one then? That's nobody's business but mine. ;)
 
OP
OP
jonny jeez

jonny jeez

Legendary Member
I think we've seen a transition from cycling primarily as transport to cycling primarily as recreation/fitness/ sport (sort of a continuum) and this has coincided with the rise of the hat.

Falling off is a relatively common thing for cyclists, if @jefmcg 's thread is anything to go by. Thankfully the number involving head injuries seems to be low ( but - full disclosure - I am in the head injury group)

So ... You are likely to fall off at some time. You are more likely to bang your hips or elbows than your head.

None of that answers the OPs question of whether they are needed because to do that you'd need to consider whether they work, and the thread would melt.

Why do I wear one then? That's nobody's business but mine. ;)
I don't agree with everything you say here. I do agree that the choice is ours and as such doesn't need justification.

However the two things I disagree with is that cyclists dont seem to fall of frequently.

From jefs thread (of our small group) it represents around once every 10,000 miles. That could be 2-10 years a rider.

Then consider the riding universe...asia, Netherlands and the frequency looks far lower.

Which is my point really, does this ...global...frequency justify wearing protective gear.

The second point I disagree on is the efficacy of a lid, I don't see that this is wholly relevant to its necessity. After all, if it were truly necessary, we could design lids that worked.

That's really what this thread is about. Its not about why we wear them or how they work, its about whether the risk of head injury is significant enough to warrant wearing protection in the first place.

You are very well placed to have an opinion on that by the sounds of it, I hope your head injury wasn't a bad one by the way.
 

snorri

Legendary Member
From general observations whilst touring in other countries, I feel we as a nation are more risk averse, and worried that we will sued by some injured party than our Euro neighbours.
Perhaps the most obvious example of this would be the signs on quaysides warning of deep water. Well of course the water is deep, how would ships be able to berth if the water wasn't deep?
Plastic cones in shopping centres and railway stations bearing warnings of wet/slippery surfaces due to the adverse weather even during drought conditions, ignoring the fact the signs themselves creating a tripping hazard.
Educating children to believe all strangers present a danger.
Never leaving home without a mobile 'phone, as if it radiates some invisible safety barrier against all ills.
Wearing a plastic hat when cycling seems a natural progression:sad:.
 

david k

Hi
Location
North West
From general observations whilst touring in other countries, I feel we as a nation are more risk averse, and worried that we will sued by some injured party than our Euro neighbours.
Perhaps the most obvious example of this would be the signs on quaysides warning of deep water. Well of course the water is deep, how would ships be able to berth if the water wasn't deep?
Plastic cones in shopping centres and railway stations bearing warnings of wet/slippery surfaces due to the adverse weather even during drought conditions, ignoring the fact the signs themselves creating a tripping hazard.
Educating children to believe all strangers present a danger.
Never leaving home without a mobile 'phone, as if it radiates some invisible safety barrier against all ills.
Wearing a plastic hat when cycling seems a natural progression:sad:.

Are our decisions based on cultures?
So, the percentage of helmet wearers is less in some countries than others, is this because the risk is different , due to infastructure etc. Or is it simply cultural? We are used to wearing them so we do and they don't.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Are our decisions based on cultures?
So, the percentage of helmet wearers is less in some countries than others, is this because the risk is different , due to infastructure etc. Or is it simply cultural? We are used to wearing them so we do and they don't.
That wouldn't completely explain the rises and falls of helmet use over time because no-one was used to wearing them so no-one would wear them and then no-one would be used to wearing them so ...

The only European country ever to record a helmet-using majority was Ireland (a sudden surge from around 20% to nearly 50% between 2010 and 2011, then it went just over in 2012) and that's reduced again now.
 

david k

Hi
Location
North West
That wouldn't completely explain the rises and falls of helmet use over time because no-one was used to wearing them so no-one would wear them and then no-one would be used to wearing them so ...

The only European country ever to record a helmet-using majority was Ireland (a sudden surge from around 20% to nearly 50% between 2010 and 2011, then it went just over in 2012) and that's reduced again now.

Maybe, but are there other cultural factors? Is it linked to society and how we perceive things? Do they look at things differently in the Middle East? I'm not sure there's a link but it's an interesting thought
 
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