Employment Law - shift patterns?

[mikeitup]

Join a union.

 

[Bman]

Its difficult. Don’t forget, those that have children have the "flexi-time" card they can play. Unless the employer can come up with a very good reason, they get what they want. Once they have what they want, the employer is stuck.

If you join a company to fill the gaps between all these employees that have this arrangement, its difficult for the employer to accommodate for those that they don’t have to...



I work full-time and I find myself working shifts that cover those that have arranged their shifts around their children. They work long days to get one day off a week. I started after these arrangements, so find my shifts altered around their arrangements…



Its not fair, but its how it is…

 

[stephec]

As has already been said, could you not look at agency work?

If you know your shifts a month in advance there must be an agency who would accept you on the basis of you saying to them, " I'm not available on days x, y, and z this month, but I'm ok for any other day?"

 

[Red Light]

Your employer has another constraint you may not have thought of - the Working Time Directive. They cannot legally be party to any arrangement - in this case you having a second job- that would in aggregate contract you to work more than the maximum of 48 hours a week specified in the Directive. Adjusting your shifts could be seen as being aware of your second job and agreeing to it which, subject to the combined hours of the two jobs, could be breaking the law. Child care is different in that it is not employment.

But remember, the Working Time Directive is there for a reason - its not good for you to work over-long hours plus the last thing they want in a hospital is someone overtired on a job where people's lives and health could be at risk.

 

[The Jogger]

Your employer has another constraint you may not have thought of - the Working Time Directive. They cannot legally be party to any arrangement - in this case you having a second job- that would in aggregate contract you to work more than the maximum of 48 hours a week specified in the Directive. Adjusting your shifts could be seen as being aware of your second job and agreeing to it which, subject to the combined hours of the two jobs, could be breaking the law. Child care is different in that it is not employment.

But remember, the Working Time Directive is there for a reason - its not good for you to work over-long hours plus the last thing they want in a hospital is someone overtired on a job where people's lives and health could be at risk.

Where did she say she would be working over 48hrs, stop trying to make excuses for jumped up, selfish management.

 

[Red Light]

Where did she say she would be working over 48hrs, stop trying to make excuses for jumped up, selfish management.

Where did she say she wouldn't? But perhaps before you work yourself up into a lather you should read what I actually wrote. Which is the WTD is another aspect that might apply if the hours added to over 48. I didn't say they did only that IF they did it would be a factor.

I have been involved helping someone in a similar position and whatever you say its an HR Law nightmare where we ended up on legal advice having to have an agreement between the two employers that our collective contracts would not require more than 48 hours working without the employees consent. Done so the employer doesn't know it happens all the time but done officially can be a nightmare which means that large employers like the NHS are unlikely to want to get involved.

There are also further restrictions related to night workers and young workers that may or may not apply.

 

[Sara_H]

I have been involved helping someone in a similar position and whatever you say its an HR Law nightmare where we ended up on legal advice having to have an agreement between the two employers that our collective contracts would not require more than 48 hours working without the employees consent. Done so the employer doesn't know it happens all the time but done officially can be a nightmare which means that large employers like the NHS are unlikely to want to get involved.

There are also further restrictions related to night workers and young workers that may or may not apply.

Interesting - what was the outcome?

And , for information, my current post is 2 11.5 hr shifts per week, I am hoping to find a job doing 2 7.5 hour days per week, which is a 38 hour week I believe.

 

[Red Light]

Interesting - what was the outcome?

And , for information, my current post is 2 11.5 hr shifts per week, I am hoping to find a job doing 2 7.5 hour days per week, which is a 38 hour week I believe.

You need an HR Professional to advise you really as I just worked off the advice I was given. In my case we reached an agreement with the other company that meant our combined contracts would not exceed 48 hours and we would not change either contract without the knowledge and consent of the other. The case that was put to me was that if we knew the person had a second employer and that employer contracted them for more hours such that the total breached the Working Time Regulations, we would both be in breach of the Regulations and liable to prosecution.

Your situation could be complex though depending on what your other job is. For example there are restrictions on night workers not working more than 8 hours in any 24 hour period but certain hospital jobs are exempt. But that might not exempt your other employer, depending on who they are and what the job is, from having to apply the regs in relation to your hours with the NHS when scheduling your working time with them.

You could just do it unofficially but then you run the risk of coming straight off a 7.5hr shift into an 11.5hr shift in the NHS with a consequent risk to patients.

 

[Sara_H]

You need an HR Professional to advise you really as I just worked off the advice I was given. In my case we reached an agreement with the other company that meant our combined contracts would not exceed 48 hours and we would not change either contract without the knowledge and consent of the other. The case that was put to me was that if we knew the person had a second employer and that employer contracted them for more hours such that the total breached the Working Time Regulations, we would both be in breach of the Regulations and liable to prosecution.

Your situation could be complex though depending on what your other job is. For example there are restrictions on night workers not working more than 8 hours in any 24 hour period but certain hospital jobs are exempt. But that might not exempt your other employer, depending on who they are and what the job is, from having to apply the regs in relation to your hours with the NHS when scheduling your working time with them.

You could just do it unofficially but then you run the risk of coming straight off a 7.5hr shift into an 11.5hr shift in the NHS with a consequent risk to patients.

What I want to do is work two fixed 7.5hr weekday shifts tuesday and wednesday for example, and fit my 2 11.5 shifts in my current job arround this.

In the example given, this would mean I was unavailable to work in my current job from monday nightshift , tuesday and wednesday days/nights. I would then be available for all other days/nights of the week, which considering I only work two days a week is pretty darn flexible on my part!

My boss has previously allowed me to do this for a temporary job in another department in the same hospital, but has said she will not consider it if i was to take a second job elsewhere.

Essentially I currently work two out of fourteen shifts available per week. I am expected to be available for all of them (work can cange my shifts up to four weeks in advance).

My feeling is that an organisation offering only part time hours, should show some flexibility towards those staff to allow them to take other opportunities.

 

[Red Light]

What I want to do is work two fixed 7.5hr weekday shifts tuesday and wednesday for example, and fit my 2 11.5 shifts in my current job arround this.

In the example given, this would mean I was unavailable to work in my current job from monday nightshift , tuesday and wednesday days/nights. I would then be available for all other days/nights of the week, which considering I only work two days a week is pretty darn flexible on my part!

My boss has previously allowed me to do this for a temporary job in another department in the same hospital, but has said she will not consider it if i was to take a second job elsewhere.

Essentially I currently work two out of fourteen shifts available per week. I am expected to be available for all of them (work can cange my shifts up to four weeks in advance).

My feeling is that an organisation offering only part time hours, should show some flexibility towards those staff to allow them to take other opportunities.

As I understand it though you would be dropping down from available for 14 shifts (7 day, 7 night) - to available for 9 shifts (5 day, 4 night). I don't know enough to know whether that makes shift scheduling much more difficult or not but it will be more difficult.

Is there someone you could pair up with doing effectively a job share so that if you get given one or two of the awkward shifts, you could swap with them?

 

[Sara_H]

As I understand it though you would be dropping down from available for 14 shifts (7 day, 7 night) - to available for 9 shifts (5 day, 4 night). I don't know enough to know whether that makes shift scheduling much more difficult or not but it will be more difficult.

Is there someone you could pair up with doing effectively a job share so that if you get given one or two of the awkward shifts, you could swap with them?

No, the boss wont allow this.

 

[col]

Your employer has another constraint you may not have thought of - the Working Time Directive. They cannot legally be party to any arrangement - in this case you having a second job- that would in aggregate contract you to work more than the maximum of 48 hours a week specified in the Directive. Adjusting your shifts could be seen as being aware of your second job and agreeing to it which, subject to the combined hours of the two jobs, could be breaking the law. Child care is different in that it is not employment.

But remember, the Working Time Directive is there for a reason - its not good for you to work over-long hours plus the last thing they want in a hospital is someone overtired on a job where people's lives and health could be at risk.

When I was on the ward about two years ago, the illegal shifts used to flash red on the pc while they worked out the off duty. They just clicked them and canceled the red out and gave you them anyway. I was doing 14 hour shifts which were ilegal but ignored, we came off nights straight onto days without the rest day in between. Every one was shattered and moral was lower than a low thing. Thats how they operate in reality. Im still in touch with work mates and its worse now as there are staff cuts too. They have a duty of care too, but a colleague nearly lost a foot because of too much work too soon, they were supposed to gradually help them back to work in a stepped way of short shifts for a few weeks. didnt happen, full time straight away, foot flared up , consultant went mad and acted on their behalf to get official procedure to happen. Discrimination for friends, against smokers, against people not in the circle ect ect. Dont believe what you read. As for spot checks by inspectors, we always got warned and extra staff pulled in to pull the wool. so there was never going to be change as the inspectors thought everything was perfect, as their spot unannounced check proved.
Check your contract, thats if you got one, I didnt even see mine in all the time I was there, nor did most I worked with. If it doesnt say you have to be available for work 24/7 then your free to get another job, they will have to work round you. unless it says you cant have another job, but then thats rare for part time work of two shifts a week.

 

[Mark_Robson]

Sarah, Can't you get some bank work? If you have your roster six weeks ahead then that should allow you to fit bank work in.

MY wife is a nurse and has a family friendly policy that allows her to request her shifts around my job. Whenever she has had problems with shifts she has always managed to do a swap. Would a swap be a workable option for you?

My wife does a lot of bank work, mainly on her own ward and often covers her own holidays. I would have a chat with your ward manager to find out how much she values you and take it from there. If she's being obstructive for personal reasons then you need to talk to HR again.