Endurance Training - Maffetone

[Rob3rt]

@The Jogger, thanks for that. I've already confessed to moving from road racing to trialthlon in the triathlon section, I get real knee and hip problems when I slow right down running. It changes my gate. So I tend not do do much below 8min miles. I can't decide on a 5 miler or a 5k park run to test my run speed or do they yield the same results?

So we have 2 for the method and some sceptics, me with an open mind tending to the sceptic side.
It looks like something to try in the early part of periodisation, round about now.

I noticed this season that if I did a very easy cycle ride on the Sunday about 80 miles or more the mid week 12 mile tt's I did improved. My tt times kept coming down all season (my second year of tt's after a long lay off, pb improving 2mins per year). ( See interleukin article). All the step changes in speed were after 80 milers, a bit of a plateau in between. But this may be coincidence or due to triathlons, duathlons etc. Therefore there may be some merit in using an HRM to control effort on a longer ride but it does not seem right. I may be answering my own question but this discussion helps!

I get the same thing when running with my partner are she is notably slower than me and my stride becomes quite unnatural and I get a bit of pain here and there.

As for testing your progress it makes no difference as to whether you run 3 mile or 5 mile really as long as you always use the same distance, route and conditions to test.

I would suggest timing yourself and not relying on a parkrun timer when your really need to know your times accurately though. As a parkrun event director, I will be completelly honest with you, parkrun isnt about providing the most accurate timing, of course we try our best and the timing method is very efficient, but it is inherently prone to error, both timer operator error (extra clicks, clicks not registered), token error (wrong order given out, a runner not taking a token then the next runner grabbing it before the token manager can pocket it) and irritatingly usually runners not following instructions and times at the back end of the field can end up being 30-40 secs out sometimes after one or two little errors at a critical point.

I've been processing the results for over a year and a half now and usually the top positions are accurate, but then as the big crowds of more average paced runners (23+ mins) starts coming in, and people with dogs and kids etc, there usually ends up with someone or something causing some slight inaccuracies. A notorious one is someone running through the finish then looping back and finding their kid and running back through the finish again with their kids, so they screw up all the timing if the timer operator doesn't recognise them.

How can you give a founded opinion without personal experience, surely it is unfounded.

Classic!

 

[amaferanga]

How can you give a founded opinion without personal experience, surely it is unfounded.

I've never jumped off a cliff, but I know it won't be good for me.

Similarly, I've never tried this method, but I know enough about physiology and training to suspect that it's not the most effective way to train if your are (like most of us are) time limited.

 

[screenman]

I suggest you read his book, it is not all about 30 hours per week.

 

[Seamab]

Thought i'd throw this into the discussion (not that i've tried it just read about it). Might be relevant.

Joe Friel (Training Bible) advocates something called Aerobic Decoupling which shares (i think) some similarities with what is being discussed here. As i understand it from a cycling point of view (also used for runners) it's a ratio between Power or speed and HR. The general idea being that you start at typical base or endurance intensity by keeping either HR or power/speed fairly constant and monitor the relationship between the two.

See here for the theory http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling,-by-joe-friel.aspx

An example
Determine power-heart rate ratio for first half of ride: Power average = 180 watts, Heart rate average = 135 bpm. First half power-heart rate ratio = 1.33 (180 / 135)
Determine power-heart rate ratio for second half of ride: Power average = 178 watts, Heart rate average = 139 bpm. Second half power-heart rate ratio = 1.28 (178 / 139)
Second half ratio minus first half ratio = 0.05 (1.33 - 1.28)
Remainder divided by the first half ratio = 0.038 (0.05 / 1.33)

Decoupling rate is 3.8

If decoupling is less than 5% then you can move up to the next intensity level and so on.

 

[Arsen Gere]

@Seamab I have one of Friels triathlon books and I agree his techniques are applicable to cycling too. The only problem I have with the formula is measuring power. I don't have a power meter --- yet :-). Speed on a turbo is fine for using it as a power reference but on the road as I am sure you know there are so many variables so HR is a better reference when you don't have a meter as a measure of effort expended.

So from the formula above its watts/beat so for each heart beat you generated x watts because the time is a constant and can be eliminated.
I'll have a tinker with that.

 

[lukesdad]

You lot wanna stop reading too many books and get on with it.

 

[Arsen Gere]

Thats the problem, what do you get on with to improve performance in races without doing stuff that has the opposite effect like over training or getting hurt.

 

[Enigma2008]

There are two key issues as I see it 1) definition of Endurance Training; and, 2) what do you want to achieve?

If you want to ride slowly for a long time then the low heart rates will help your body learn to use fats as the fuel source. If you want to race then it's still endurance but at a higher heart rate which will use sugars (glycogen) as fuel. So; which is that you're after?

Long distance endurance or race endurance? If the latter then the following synopsis from Optimize Endurance Training by Lance C. Dalleck, M.S. & Len Kravitz, Ph.D. Proposes that 'The lactate threshold is the most important determinant of success in endurance-related events.
Improvement of the lactate threshold is the main goal of endurance training.'

The correct training intensity is essential to the success of endurance training. Accomplished by:
Firstly a focus on developing training volume [this is the low heart rate stuff]
Then incorporation of steady-state sessions as close as possible to the lactate threshold [this is still endurance but higher intensity]
Incorporation of interval workouts above the lactate threshold. [this is anaerobic endurance and falls outside this thread]

When you know/decide what you want to achieve then the above will give you some guide to what you need to do.

 

[lukesdad]

Thats the problem, what do you get on with to improve performance in races without doing stuff that has the opposite effect like over training or getting hurt.

Well the first thing you have to ask is how many races and how long is the season, and Improve performance ? How would you quantify this ? A particular event, one race, a series. All will require a different approach.

 

[Arsen Gere]

@Enigma2008 Ah well that's where Maffetone would disagree with you and why I am cautious. He says you can calculate your max aerobic function and then train to that. If you have neglected your aerobic training for more anaerobic work, then when you run/ride at this MAF level you will be very slow.
By working at your MAF level for 3-4 months your HR stays the same but your speed will increase. So when it comes to racing, you depend more on your aerobic function and use fats rather than carbs for your race. Then at the end of this period you add some threshold and anaerobic work once this volume period is complete.
So this could complement Dalleck and Kravitz work.

What I did this year was to mix up the swim/bike/run volume and intensity, I raised the volume on the bike first with some intensity culminating in the Northern Rock Cyclone (107 miles), not a race I know but i treated it as a TT. I let the volume go down on the bike and raised the volume on the run to do the Kielder Marathon, then I lowered them both to do regular 4k swims. I'm working on raising the volume on all three (weather permitting) before the racing season when I'll drop it off and go for a bit more intensity to hit an important sprint event in April. Then pick up the volume again with a bit less intensity to hit IMUK in July. It was the only way I could see me getting the volume up on all three without being injured or completely knackered.

 

[Garz]

I like to read the people's literature to get a base opinion. From this I may either dabble with it or adapt it to get some real insight. However I do find that what works well for the test guinea-pigs or the proffesional (elite 5% in the world) may be worthless to the average Joe.

I too have found the low intensity workouts very beneficial for generic health and improvements. Once you start to plateau each individual will respond to different training methods, like mentioned above, you need to suit the training to your goals.