English Baccalaureate

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summerdays

Cycling in the sun
Location
Bristol
According to this news item: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12163929
School league tables: Most miss Baccalaureate target
which seems a bit unfair when it didn't exist when these pupils made their GCSE choices. However when I look at the local league tables in the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2011/jan/11/bristol-gcse-alevel-tables they seem to be quoting that 70-95% got it whereas the BBC tables http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/10/html/801.stm seem to suggest much lower figures.

I gather that the English Baccalaureate is comprised of English, Maths, a science, foreign language and either history or geography. By luck (?) my eldest who is taking her exams this year has that spread of subjects but has already got the Maths GCSE, so for the purpose of next years statistics will they include pupils who take their exams early? And my next child is due to pick her GCSE subjects in the next few weeks. Is the school likely to group the subjects so that they have to take history or geography now?

Will this "English Baccalaureate" only be important in school league tables or will it be something that is also worth considering at the pupil level?
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
it will be important for league tables. Which is another way of saying that it's a complete waste of time, although the anxieties of head teachers are understandable, given that, apparently, some parents care deeply about league tables.
 

vernon

Harder than Ronnie Pickering
Location
Meanwood, Leeds
Will this "English Baccalaureate" only be important in school league tables or will it be something that is also worth considering at the pupil level?

The English Baccalaureate is an artificial measure introduced for no other purpose than to covertly control the curriculums of schools. Disguising it as a comparison tool and applying it to results of kids whose courses and results were set in stone two years ago and five months ago is fraudulent.

The first time that the "Bacc' will be meaningful will be August 2013 because that is the earliest that schools can produce results from curriculum changes that are introduced for September 2011.

I have no problems with the notion of controlling the curriculum to a degree if it helps to eliminate the course with multiple GCSE equivalence attached to them and whose worth is lower than a low thing.

Currently only 15% of pupils qualified and 50% of the schools had less than 10% of their pupils qualify. However, a straw poll amongst my colleagues revealed similar low levels of attainment despite them all having degrees. More of my colleagues have higher degrees than have 'passed' the Baccalaureate.

Things to bear in mind:

Our 'Bacc' does not compare with the European ones. Ours is an arbitrary basket of qualifications thrown together overnight the continental ones have evolved and been refined over decades.
Our Bacc is not a proper Bacc.
Not having the Bacc will not disadvantage pupils with good GCSE's in mainstream subjects.
Any floor level introduced to indicate 'satisfactory' standards will be abitrary and plucked from the air.
The Bacc is only one of several measures that should be used when comparing schools.
I suspect that not all pupils will not have to do all of the subjects in the Bacaulaureate - if there's no prospect of them passing a couple of the qualifying subjects then they will be able to study alternative subjects.

Overall it a brilliant piece of marketing by the government. It gives the appearance that it has been created to raise standards and give greater choice to pupils post GCSE. It will not affect pupils prospects one bit. It will not raise standards but merely increase the exposure of pupils to some subjects that were not compulsory. The fact that there's more pupils taking those subjects will increase the numbers of pupils passing them thus raising the percentage of pupils getting the Baccalaureate will will be promoted as the raising of standards.
 

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
Yay, I'd have got an English Bac. That C grade in Latin O level was worth something after all. Maybe I'll put it on my CV.
 

vernon

Harder than Ronnie Pickering
Location
Meanwood, Leeds
Yay, I'd have got an English Bac. That C grade in Latin O level was worth something after all. Maybe I'll put it on my CV.

No you haven't got a Bacc.

You need a modern foreign language.

Sorry to disappoint.

Remembered from my schooldays:

Latin is a dead language
As dead as dead can be
First it killed the Romans
And now it's killing me
 
OP
OP
summerdays

summerdays

Cycling in the sun
Location
Bristol
Overall it a brilliant piece of marketing by the government. It gives the appearance that it has been created to raise standards and give greater choice to pupils post GCSE. It will not affect pupils prospects one bit. It will not raise standards but merely increase the exposure of pupils to some subjects that were not compulsory. The fact that there's more pupils taking those subjects will increase the numbers of pupils passing them thus raising the percentage of pupils getting the Baccalaureate will will be promoted as the raising of standards.

An interesting insight into how the schools will perceive this statistic!! and I hadn't even thought about the spin the government could put on it as "improving school results" - I was just thinking whether my child with effectively be forced to take Geography or History (the other ones are compulsory anyway at her school for the mainstream pupils), so that the school could improve its results.

I was thinking that I had taken the right O-levels to have achieved this ... then I remembered that I failed French :whistle:
 

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
No you haven't got a Bacc.

You need a modern foreign language.

Sorry to disappoint.

Remembered from my schooldays:

Latin is a dead language
As dead as dead can be
First it killed the Romans
And now it's killing me

Negativeness, Michael Gove says a modern or ancient foreign language - see here.

Romanii ite domum.
 

vernon

Harder than Ronnie Pickering
Location
Meanwood, Leeds
An interesting insight into how the schools will perceive this statistic!! and I hadn't even thought about the spin the government could put on it as "improving school results" - I was just thinking whether my child with effectively be forced to take Geography or History (the other ones are compulsory anyway at her school for the mainstream pupils), so that the school could improve its results.

I was thinking that I had taken the right O-levels to have achieved this ... then I remembered that I failed French :whistle:

Your daughter will, unfortunately, have to choose between the two. The school will improve its results against this artificial and arbitrary measure simply because it's increasing the number of kids taking the subject.

Restricted choice is no bad thing if it's appropriate. Clever kids are all too often allowed to take inappropriate combinations of subjects which restricts their options at A-level and degree subject. The basket of qualifications in the Bacc does offer a large amount of freedom when choosing A-levels. The basket of qualifications is not appropriate for pupils who will struggle to get the grade Cs and a more vocational bias would be better. Technical schools are waiting in the wings for a high profile launch.

Watch this space.
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
I was chatting to my wife about stats, tables and targets and was quite alaramed to discover:-

assessments from primary school is used to calculate expectations for pupils leaving junior school
assessments of pupils leaving junior schools are used to calculate expectations for GCSE results

The perception among secondary school teachers seems to be that primary schools tend to overinflate assessments to meet their targets and so do junior schools. So a secondary school has targets based on inflated results caused by target orientation and then they have no choice but to try and follow suit. If this follows into A levels then it all lends credence to the complaints you hear from universities about how much remedial tutoring is required before they even get students going on their degrees proper. My understanding is that this area is where there is a big difference between state and private education. The latter produces students with far less remedial requirements at degree level.

Accepted this isn't my area and I may not be translating very well but it does bear a horrible affinity to some corporate appraisal systems. In my view the main success this brings is an enhanced ability to manage upwards, with a blindness to anything not within direct target remit. Targets can also limit a structures ability to respond to change. People will continue to chase a number well after all hope of success has vanished.
 

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
I was wondering recently what constituted a humanities subject. We were taught humanities at middle school, which seemed to be basically geography, history and English. According to Wikipedia, the humanities encompass quite a wide range of subjects, including English and foreign languages. Wikipedia doesn't count geography as a humanities subject, but it does all the performing arts, as well as philosophy, religion and law. Not the social sciences though. The term seems a bit vague.
 

vernon

Harder than Ronnie Pickering
Location
Meanwood, Leeds
I was chatting to my wife about stats, tables and targets and was quite alaramed to discover:-

assessments from primary school is used to calculate expectations for pupils leaving junior school
assessments of pupils leaving junior schools are used to calculate expectations for GCSE results

The perception among secondary school teachers seems to be that primary schools tend to overinflate assessments to meet their targets and so do junior schools. So a secondary school has targets based on inflated results caused by target orientation and then they have no choice but to try and follow suit. If this follows into A levels then it all lends credence to the complaints you hear from universities about how much remedial tutoring is required before they even get students going on their degrees proper. My understanding is that this area is where there is a big difference between state and private education. The latter produces students with far less remedial requirements at degree level.

Accepted this isn't my area and I may not be translating very well but it does bear a horrible affinity to some corporate appraisal systems. In my view the main success this brings is an enhanced ability to manage upwards, with a blindness to anything not within direct target remit. Targets can also limit a structures ability to respond to change. People will continue to chase a number well after all hope of success has vanished.

A very astute observation. Assessment at primary and junior schools does not have the linguistic payload of GCSE and A-level exams. They are tick box and matched pair exercises with short verbal responses and, if I recall correctly some have migrated to teacher assessments.

It has been noticeable in my time as a teacher that extended writing and thinking in some subjects is no longer assessed as pupils are not equipped to cope with them

In maths and science the words 'derive' 'develop' 'demonstrate' and 'prove' have disappeared from the questions because pupils do not have the skills to be able to answer them. A/S and A-level maths and science are shadows of their former selves because to leave them unchanged would have lead to a collapse in the percentage of top grades and the inability of any government to be able to demonstrate an unremitting improvement in standards.

Highschools are held hostage to the inflated grades delivered by their junior partners.

At the end of the day one has to ask who exactly is being assessed:

The schools, the pupils or the teachers.

I'd argue that the pupils have become the unintended victims of a system designed to measure the ability of one school to outperform another by selecting courses that deliver maximum grades through minimal cognitive ability.

There's been massive grade inflation over the years.

When the National Curriculum was introduced it was stated that an average pupil would obtain a grade F in his/her exams.

The expectation that the average student gets five or more grade Cs including English and Maths.

The key stages were deliver one level of improvement per key stage. A high school was therefore expected to raise an 11 year old's level from say a four to a five.

This has now been raised to two levels at key stage three. I'm not sure what the foundation for this inflated expectation is because the kids aren't any cleverer, the teachers are largely the same, teaching quality is only marginally better and the demography of most school catchment areas is static.

The delivering the GCSE grades decreed as being the targets for our GCSE students has become an industry in itself with target setting meetings, post mortem meetings, intervention meetings, diagnostic meetings, quality assurance meetings, tracking meetings, one to one meetings all to justify why in some instances making a silk purse out of a sows ear is a non starter.

So much time so little of it to teach in......
 

vernon

Harder than Ronnie Pickering
Location
Meanwood, Leeds
I was wondering recently what constituted a humanities subject. We were taught humanities at middle school, which seemed to be basically geography, history and English. According to Wikipedia, the humanities encompass quite a wide range of subjects, including English and foreign languages. Wikipedia doesn't count geography as a humanities subject, but it does all the performing arts, as well as philosophy, religion and law. Not the social sciences though. The term seems a bit vague.

The definition changes with the political climate.

Humanities for all intents and purposes is confined to history and geography.

It has included economics in the past.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
Clearly the English Bac is a fantastic idea, a perfect predictor of future success. No-one who doesn't attain it can possibly hope to get anywhere. Why, I (neither history nor geography) was saying only last night to my wife (only one science) that neither of us have got anywhere with our lives. Only two degrees, two professional qualifications, two senior management jobs and one large house between us. If only we'd got the English Bac we'd be in a much better place.
 
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