English Baccalaureate

[srw]

The definition changes with the political climate.

Humanities for all intents and purposes is confined to history and geography.

It has included economics in the past.

Personally I'd include Art, Music and the classical subjects in the "humanities" pot, and keep the languages modern. And that's not just because if we don't I fear they'll stop being taught.

 

[vernon]

Personally I'd include Art, Music and the classical subjects in the "humanities" pot, and keep the languages modern. And that's not just because if we don't I fear they'll stop being taught.

You needn't fear about the languages having to be modern languages. Latin, Greek and Hebrew are taught in so few state schools that they do not constitute a threat. There's isn't going to be a massive expansion of Latin, Greek and Hebrew teaching to accomodate the Bacc.

 

[dellzeqq]

Vern will correct me if I've got this wrong, but underlying this is the idea that schools compete with each other to get the most or best pupils at age 11.

That seems a bit of wishful thinking - most pupils don't have much of a choice. It also presumes that parents look at the league tables and say 'St. Hilda's is better than Gasworks Street, our kid is going to St. Hilda's'. I'd have thought that if they had a choice they'd choose the one with the nicest buildings, nicest looking kids, nicest teachers.

There is one respect in which the league tables are very useful - competition at the 'top' end. Parents with kids at private schools and selective state schools do look at the league tables, the former to see if they're getting 'value for money'. But, then again, is that what the league tables are for?

 

[mark barker]

To be fair it does seem that a lot of this has been blown out of proportion... The Bacc is looking at 5 subjects, and most schools would expect their pupils to take between 9 and 14 GCSEs (or at least that has been the case at the schools that I've taught at). Even if we assume that every school is going to "push" the pupils into the Bacc subjects they'll still have 4-9 other subjects to study, some of which could be vocational. Its a sad fact that not every pupil will pass, (and this isn't always the pupils fault!) but core subjects have been around forever! I took my options in 1989 (GCSEs in 1991) and I was faced with having to choose one humanity, one language, one science, English language and Maths. After those subjects were slotted into my timetable I got to fill the rest with subjects from other disciplines.

For what its worth I'd have failed the Bacc as I only got a D in French, but I can't see that as a problem. Qualifications are only as important as the last one you took, so for students that wish to carry on with education their AS/A levels or degree etc will be the focal point, not their GCSEs/ Bacc. For those that don't wish to carry on in education they can continue to list GCSEs, NVQs, Btec etc and make no mention of Bacc.

To pick up on something DZ mentioned above about league tables, sadly there are many parents that don't do any research at all! Their kids go to the nearest primary school and they'll go to the nearest secondary school regardless of reputation or results. At the other end of the spectrum you get the parents that focus totally on results and fail to see the bigger picture. This isn't the fault of the system or league tables, its a failing of the parents, and no matter how the results are dressed up that won't change.

 

[MacB]

To pick up on something DZ mentioned above about league tables, sadly there are many parents that don't do any research at all! Their kids go to the nearest primary school and they'll go to the nearest secondary school regardless of reputation or results. At the other end of the spectrum you get the parents that focus totally on results and fail to see the bigger picture. This isn't the fault of the system or league tables, its a failing of the parents, and no matter how the results are dressed up that won't change.

surely that's how it should be, we've created enough problems with work/home locations without further exacerbating them with lengthier school commutes.

 

[mark barker]

surely that's how it should be, we've created enough problems with work/home locations without further exacerbating them with lengthier school commutes.

In an ideal world, yes... But if your children were faced with going to rough school 1/2 a mile away or a decent one 2 miles away, which would you push for? Theres also a growing trend amongst some parents to get their children into schools near to their place of work rather than near their homes to reduce commuting times and childcare costs.

 

[User169]

surely that's how it should be, we've created enough problems with work/home locations without further exacerbating them with lengthier school commutes.

Well quite. Our children are unable to attend the nearest school to our house since it has something of a reputation and we failed to sign them up when in utero.

 

[threebikesmcginty]

surely that's how it should be, we've created enough problems with work/home locations without further exacerbating them with lengthier school commutes.

That's what we did, we live opposite the school, it would be daft not to use it and make the best of it. There are some in the same road who don't use the scool though and prefer to drive their kids elsewhere. Choice is a wonderful thing.

 

[vernon]

In an ideal world, yes... But if your children were faced with going to rough school 1/2 a mile away or a decent one 2 miles away, which would you push for? Theres also a growing trend amongst some parents to get their children into schools near to their place of work rather than near their homes to reduce commuting times and childcare costs.

The solution is simple. Move to an area with a good school. No need for the kids to be ferried by car.

If parent bit the bullet and sent their children to the local schools invariably standards would rise. Apart from a short spell I have taught exclusively in inner city schools whose intake is skewed by parents electing to send their kids elsewhere. My school was unfortunate enough to be named after the local council estate rather then the middle class suburb that is next to.

The name is associated with the council estate and all that entails and through no fault of its own has had an enduring second rate reputation. The intake is further skewed by the presence of a CTC which benefits from parents being ambitious enough for their kids to fight to gain a place. It would be telling to see what would happen if my school and the CTC swapped their intakes.

 

[Yellow Fang]

The definition changes with the political climate.

Humanities for all intents and purposes is confined to history and geography.

It has included economics in the past.

Wouldn't it also include English Literature? Do they still do English language and English literature as separate GCSEs in school?

 

[vernon]

For what its worth I'd have failed the Bacc as I only got a D in French, but I can't see that as a problem. Qualifications are only as important as the last one you took, so for students that wish to carry on with education their AS/A levels or degree etc will be the focal point, not their GCSEs/ Bacc. For those that don't wish to carry on in education they can continue to list GCSEs, NVQs, Btec etc and make no mention of Bacc.

I think that this is a rather naive point of view. The Bacc has been introduced as a bench mark and you can put money on it being used by organisations to filter out applicants when recruiting. Sure it's not the be all and end all as there will be a large number of pupils failing to get it. I am confident that the majority of schools will fail to get 35% of their pupils through the Bacc before I retire.

As for qualifications being only as important as the last one's you took. Examine medical school recruitment procedures - candidates have been turned away on the basis of weakish GCSEs despite decent A-levels.

 

[vernon]

Wouldn't it also include English Literature? Do they still do English language and English literature as separate GCSEs in school?

Only the most able do both. Schools are busy shoe horning in less demanding courses to maximise the number of GCSE/GCSE equivalents. A case of more is less.

 

[User169]

The solution is simple. Move to an area with a good school. No need for the kids to be ferried by car.

Simply in principle I suppose, but where I lived in the UK there was a 50k GBP premium for houses in the catchment area of the most popular local school.

 

[vernon]

To be fair it does seem that a lot of this has been blown out of proportion... The Bacc is looking at 5 subjects, and most schools would expect their pupils to take between 9 and 14 GCSEs (or at least that has been the case at the schools that I've taught at). Even if we assume that every school is going to "push" the pupils into the Bacc subjects they'll still have 4-9 other subjects to study, some of which could be vocational. Its a sad fact that not every pupil will pass, (and this isn't always the pupils fault!) but core subjects have been around forever! I took my options in 1989 (GCSEs in 1991) and I was faced with having to choose one humanity, one language, one science, English language and Maths. After those subjects were slotted into my timetable I got to fill the rest with subjects from other disciplines.

The Bacc might be five subjects but one of them is double science occupying a double option slot.

If one allocates three hours per subject thats eighteen hours occupied with the time available for another three subjects if they are academically rigorous or anything up to eight if the 'painting by numbers' options are chosen.

If I was an employer and clued up I'd rather have eight strong grades from a candidate than fourteen strong grades that include the vocational/diploma/OCR Nationals options. One of my local colleges turns potential A-level candidates away if their entry qualification is OCR Nationals.

Schools will have to push kids into curriculums that are not always suited to the kids after all its the schools that are been judged by the Bacc and not the kids. The unintended consequence is that employers will use the Bacc as a floor level entry qualification and disadvantage some otherwise suitable pupils when applying for jobs.

Some kids will get a reduced choice. Some kids will not be affected.

What I am saying is that a restricted choice is no bad thing but its masquerading as a qualification that will almost certainly have unintended consequences for a whole range of people.

 

[vernon]

Simply in principle I suppose, but where I lived in the UK there was a 50k GBP premium for houses in the catchment area of the most popular local school.

But that can be partially recouped in savings from child care and transport.

My kids went to our local schools unlike a large number who travel up to 12 miles to attend schools in Harrogate, Wetherby and Boston Spa.