Very often I find that it isn't the ASL thats the problem, its the short lane leading to it. Very often they're VERY short, no more than a cars length, they seem to assume that the cyclist will be right by the kerb to begin with and that they can be funneled out in front of the traffic, requiring a rather sudden change in direction. Personally, I'd prefer no cycle lane linking to the ASL, I'd rather not have motorists encouraged to believe that we should only be filtering on the left (and moving over to block me filtering on the right, which is obviously better when you're turning that way!).
Filter lanes and ASLs - an idea.
- Thread starter Pete
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In fact, what I am suggesting Tynan is that we remove feeders altogether. Just have the ESZ. A campaign would need to be run to educate cyclists and drivers, about why it is there and how to use it. (Was there ever anything for ASLs?).
Remember that this zone would not actually be aimed at cyclists as such but at the drivers. It would be like a normal hatch which drivers should keep out of. On approach to the junction would be some signage informing approaching cyclists that an ESZ exists for them to pull into if they require it. That would encourage some cyclists to place themselves in the primary position, a few cars back. Much safer than ASLs.
I'm not suggesting that this idea is perfect, but I think it is safer that the current ASLs. A good education campaign to herald their introduction would be vital though.
Remember that this zone would not actually be aimed at cyclists as such but at the drivers. It would be like a normal hatch which drivers should keep out of. On approach to the junction would be some signage informing approaching cyclists that an ESZ exists for them to pull into if they require it. That would encourage some cyclists to place themselves in the primary position, a few cars back. Much safer than ASLs.
I'm not suggesting that this idea is perfect, but I think it is safer that the current ASLs. A good education campaign to herald their introduction would be vital though.
Cab said:
I agree Cab, but even if there was no feeder lane a lot of cyclists would get into the ASL by left filtering, which is where conflict and sometimes deaths can occur.
Take the ASL away and encourage a good road position a few cars back and, for those who follow this advise, the problem is removed.
magnatom said:
Oh, I entirely take your point on board here, you're right. It isn't going to work though because, frankly, it isn't foolproof, and there are all too many fools on the road. A big box with a bike on it at the front works because cyclists want to filter to the front and it is simple; put it a few back and you've got the ill informed still filtering on the left all the way to the front.
If everyone understood and obeyed the rules your solution would be ideal; but then again, if everyone understood and obeyed the rules we wouldn't need such a solution anyway
I should point out that my idea for the ESZ came from a hatched area on my commute that had gone now. It was close to the traffic lights for a junction that I take a right turn at. The lane that entered the road (and was the reason for the hatch) got closed of with bollards, but for a good few months the hatch remained. Drivers generally stayed out of it. I found it provided a great place for me to slot into the traffic after having right filtered. There was no need to go to the front as I was two cars back and I always got through in the next phase.
If it worked well for me in this situation I think it could work for others.
It has been removed now and it means I have to concentrate more to slot into the traffic. I can do it (I am experienced now) but it may not be so easy for others.
If it worked well for me in this situation I think it could work for others.
It has been removed now and it means I have to concentrate more to slot into the traffic. I can do it (I am experienced now) but it may not be so easy for others.
Cab said:Oh, I entirely take your point on board here, you're right. It isn't going to work though because, frankly, it isn't foolproof, and there are all too many fools on the road. A big box with a bike on it at the front works because cyclists want to filter to the front and it is simple; put it a few back and you've got the ill informed still filtering on the left right to the front.
If everyone understood and obeyed the rules your solution would be ideal; but then again, if everyone understood and obeyed the rules we wouldn't need such a solution anyway
Your right of course. It will be ignored a lot etc. But at least it would be a visible sign of best practice. Surely something that directs you to best practice is better than something that reinforces something that can be dangerous.
That's why I am saying a good education campaign would be vital for its introduction. Why keep things the same because change would be difficult? We all moan about road markings being poor, wouldn't this be a first step to producing a road marking that actually could improve safety?
I think cycle specific paint in the road is good becasue it reminds drivers of cyclists' rights to be in the road, granted the curb side ones are a bit submissive but even so I like them, the curb huggers will be there anyway, more so without one
nothing I like more than the lanes they paint to guide cyclists to the right of the left hand turn lane, not that most cyclists ignore ir and gaily start from the corner to the left of the left turning traffic
I'm not really saying that this is a bad idea, just that I suspect it's too complex for an uneducated driver/cyclist population that barely managing the current setup of lanes and ASLs
nothing I like more than the lanes they paint to guide cyclists to the right of the left hand turn lane, not that most cyclists ignore ir and gaily start from the corner to the left of the left turning traffic
I'm not really saying that this is a bad idea, just that I suspect it's too complex for an uneducated driver/cyclist population that barely managing the current setup of lanes and ASLs
magnatom said:
Again, I see where you're coming from, but its such a radical shift in road culture for the UK that I don't believe its realistic. Look at most of the cycle lanes on roads; they're poorly surfaced and way too narrow, to use them you've got to be in a pretty shoddy version of secondary position, they don't encourage best practice in any way. So, short of removing a huge amount of this provision, how are you going to discourage the endemic problem with people left filtering through what is wrongly assumed to be the right cycle spot on the road?
But ASLs aren't particularly unsafe even now, if used correctly. You have to filter best perceived practice through how people really are; ASLs are there because they deal with how cyclists behave, they want to filter to the front. Give them something further back, so they're not filtering to the front any more, and they'll still filter to the front, only they won't be out in front of the traffic in a safer road spot any more.
I'd buy into the ESZ idea, true, would be far less dangerous for a cyclist than some ASLs. I wouldn't want it to be mandatory on cyclists though: obviously sometimes you'll be first at the junction: silly to have to hold back in the ESZ while cars overtake you to get to the ordinary stop line 
....
I think my idea of a warning light would have to be backed up with a worded sign: something like:
...assuming that most cyclists in Britain can read English. Make that non-mandatory too, but 'on your own head be it...'
I want lives to be saved, anyhow possible. I'm gutted every time I read - on this forum or elsewhere - of yet another 'left-hook' fatality. As, I'm sure, all of you are...
....I think my idea of a warning light would have to be backed up with a worded sign: something like:
CYCLISTS
DO NOT PASS STATIONARY
VEHICLES WHEN LIGHT IS
FLASHING
DO NOT PASS STATIONARY
VEHICLES WHEN LIGHT IS
FLASHING
...assuming that most cyclists in Britain can read English. Make that non-mandatory too, but 'on your own head be it...'
I want lives to be saved, anyhow possible. I'm gutted every time I read - on this forum or elsewhere - of yet another 'left-hook' fatality. As, I'm sure, all of you are...
I should first say Pete I didn't want to hijack the thread. I hope I didn't (of course I did! )
Of course you are right they would not be mandatory. Hanging back would cause far more problems than it would solve. So you would probably only want ESZs where traffic tended to queue.
Maybe there is space on the roads for both options.
Who would be the best person to make suggestions to about new types of road markings etc for cyclists? The CTC?
)Of course you are right they would not be mandatory. Hanging back would cause far more problems than it would solve. So you would probably only want ESZs where traffic tended to queue.
Maybe there is space on the roads for both options.
Who would be the best person to make suggestions to about new types of road markings etc for cyclists? The CTC?
134 cyclists were killed, 2,174 suffered serious personal injury and 14,430 suffered slight personal injury in the UK in 2004.
So you are suggesting that we shouldn't try and reduce the number of fatalities then? 1 cyclists death is 1 to many. 134 killed is 134 to many.
That's a poor attitude Tynan.
So you are suggesting that we shouldn't try and reduce the number of fatalities then? 1 cyclists death is 1 to many. 134 killed is 134 to many.
That's a poor attitude Tynan.
Lets look at your logic here.
My mum is currently suffering from Motor Neuron Disease and will probably die as a result of it. It is a rare disease (affects between 1-5 in 100,000). So using your logic there is no point in pursing a cure for this. Lets all focus on the big killers, heart disease, stroke, cancer etc.
My mum is currently suffering from Motor Neuron Disease and will probably die as a result of it. It is a rare disease (affects between 1-5 in 100,000). So using your logic there is no point in pursing a cure for this. Lets all focus on the big killers, heart disease, stroke, cancer etc.
that's exactly what they do, they focus resources on the big killers
doesn't mean they ignore MND
just like they spend money on cycle safety but they'll only spend so much, diminishing returns and all that
face it, the sorts of people that cycle up the insides of long vehicles at junctions are going to do that whatever you paint in the road
get as angry as you lie, them's the facts
don't think you bringing your mother into it helps at all
doesn't mean they ignore MND
just like they spend money on cycle safety but they'll only spend so much, diminishing returns and all that
face it, the sorts of people that cycle up the insides of long vehicles at junctions are going to do that whatever you paint in the road
get as angry as you lie, them's the facts
don't think you bringing your mother into it helps at all
