First electric car experience

[icowden]

Also, electric cars cost more than diesel when recharging as Guy Martin demonstrated when he did Lejog with an electric vehicle. Cost of electricity: £204 compared to £140 on diesel .

If you are an utter plonker and only charge at superchargers on the motorway it will cost you more. For most people you will charge at home and find nicer places if you do need to supercharge. Do you fill up with Diesel on the motorway? I know I don't.

Further, he did his "test" in a converted ICE car and not in a properly designed EV. There is a reason that Tesla are best for long journeys, and cheaper, more efficient charging along with longer range is just part of that. They are designed to be electric.

Then of course, as time goes on Diesel is going to become more expensive as demand drops...

 

[icowden]

The MG ZS is given a headline price of £21,000 compared to the very similar looking Hyundai Kona at £27,500.
But a petrol Kona is £18,500, which makes it a far superior ownership prospect for Kona fans.

Cheap leccy and slightly cheaper servicing (possibly) will never make up for the missing ten grand, and the savage depreciation of both vehicles will, of course, cost the electric Kona owner more in cash terms.

Again, EVs do not haver the savage depreciation (yet) that ICE vehicles have. The newer the EV the less the depreciation.

 

[MrGrumpy]

I am currently working on an infrastructure project which if it goes ahead could see well over a hundred thousands lamposts being converted to EV chargers. That should make quite a dent in the charging needs of the nation.

That’s more the sort of thing that needs rolled out. I was also thinking induction charging , similar to your wireless mobile ?

 

[MrGrumpy]

Again, EVs do not haver the savage depreciation (yet) that ICE vehicles have. The newer the EV the less the depreciation.

Yes but still £10k more !? In that examples . I think we can all agree that we will all move to EV , it’s when !!

 

[Tenkaykev]

I am currently working on an infrastructure project which if it goes ahead could see well over a hundred thousands lamposts being converted to EV chargers. That should make quite a dent in the charging needs of the nation.

I'd thought about the practicalities of this. With the street lighting being low power, the cabling to them would be quite a small guage as copper is expensive and you size the conductor to the load. Can you shed any light ( no pun intended ) as to what sort of power would be available? ( I'm very much pro schemes such as this, a lamp post could have a connector either side parallel to the road direction allowing two cars per post )

 

[icowden]

Yes but still £10k more !? In that examples . I think we can all agree that we will all move to EV , it’s when !!

Don't forget you need to take the 2.5k UK EV Grant off that price. As I said before, if Boris and his cronies were actually serious they wouldn't have reduced the EV grant from 4.5k to 2.5k. Other countries are actually encouraging people to go greener.

 

[MrGrumpy]

I'd thought about the practicalities of this. With the street lighting being low power, the cabling to them would be quite a small guage as copper is expensive and you size the conductor to the load. Can you shed any light ( no pun intended ) as to what sort of power would be available? ( I'm very much pro schemes such as this, a lamp post could have a connector either side parallel to the road direction allowing two cars per post )

I’m seeing a couple of commando sockets , however yes I would of thought the current draw would be big on these batteries ? Not sure whatsize of cabling is used on street lighting ?

 

[Tenkaykev]

That’s more the sort of thing that needs rolled out. I was also thinking induction charging , similar to your wireless mobile ?

I think induction charging is a dead end as it is comparatively inefficient and maintenance would be an issue. Cars would need to carry round induction coils on the bottom of the vehicle which is extra weight and expense which would affect range, the coils embedded in the charge stations would need cooling, the charge rate would vary depending on the distance between the vehicle charge coils and those in the charge station etc ( inverse square law ) It's trotted out as a solution every so often, but I can't see it as any sort of practical solution.

 

[MrGrumpy]

I think induction charging is a dead end as it is comparatively inefficient and maintenance would be an issue. Cars would need to carry round induction coils on the bottom of the vehicle which is extra weight and expense which would affect range, the coils embedded in the charge stations would need cooling, the charge rate would vary depending on the distance between the vehicle charge coils and those in the charge station etc ( inverse square law ) It's trotted out as a solution every so often, but I can't see it as any sort of practical solution.

What might be better was a standardised battery pack . Slots in and out, you exchange your battery every so often? That might get round the issues of dud batteries .

 

[Pale Rider]

Again, EVs do not haver the savage depreciation (yet) that ICE vehicles have. The newer the EV the less the depreciation.

You keep on asserting this, but a quick straw poll of online articles suggest EVs depreciate at least as much as ICE cars.

I think @Archie_tect bought a nearly new hybrid which had depreciated by about a third - the same as you would expect with any nearly new car.

Nothing to suggest the EV will somehow magically hold its value thereafter any better than an ICE one.

Further, Archie's car was in short supply, so goodness know what will happen if there is a glut.

Published depreciation figures don't tend to take into account older vehicles because none of the fleet operators are interested in them.

However, many of us will end up selling, if not buying, an older vehicle.

A tidy diesel engined car with 100,000 miles is still seen as having some life in it.

A tidy electric car with the same mileage will, rightly or wrongly, be seen as in need of a new battery pack, particularly if it is eight or 10 years old.

The pack will be thousands, effectively rendering the car worthless, particularly when a buyer can get a similar age and mileage diesel for £3k-£4k.

The motor trade takes no prisoners, so a tired old EV will be marked down just as savagely as an ICE car, or rather more so because of the thousands it will need spending on it.

 

[Tenkaykev]

What might be better was a standardised battery pack . Slots in and out, you exchange your battery every so often? That might get round the issues of dud batteries .

That's been looked into too, and the practicalities make it a non starter. Batteries are heavy, several hundred Kg. Each manufacturer has come up with their own design of battery pack and drive motor. The battery packs aren't just cells, they contain coolant channels, interconnects and electronics. For a fascinating look at what is actually inside the various cars, battery packs and electric drive motors / gearboxes, Sandy Munro of Munro Live channel on YouTube takes these apart, all the way down to just the frame of the car. Well worth a look for a deeper understanding of what's happening in Electric vehicle design.

 

[icowden]

I’m seeing a couple of commando sockets , however yes I would of thought the current draw would be big on these batteries ? Not sure whatsize of cabling is used on street lighting ?

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/support/charging/Gen_3_Wall_Connector_Manual_UK.pdf

This is the installation manual for a tesla home wall charger. With a 230v single phase supply you need an output between 6A and 32A (obviously the higher you can go the faster the charging). A 3 phase supply is better and a 400v supply best (as far as I can see - not an electrician!).

Presumably as streetlights are being swapped to led, there is surplus power available for tapping.

 

[icowden]

You keep on asserting this, but a quick straw poll of online articles suggest EVs depreciate at least as much as ICE cars.
I think @Archie_tect bought a nearly new hybrid which had depreciated by about a third - the same as you would expect with any nearly new car.

If you are going to debate about this, you need to get straight in your head that a hybrid is NOT an EV.

EV = Solely electric
ICE = Solely fossil fuel
Hybrid = ICE with an extra battery to get around government regulations and make the company look like they are doing something about emissions.

So yes, Archie's hybrid would have depreciated. A pure EV however :

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/do-electric-cars-depreciate#gref

In fact, according to our data, electric cars buck the industry trend because on average EVs retain 48.9% of their value after three years or 36,000 miles.

https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/do-electric-cars-depreciate/

The depreciation of electric vehicles stacks up well compared to petrol cars, which usually depreciate the fastest. Diesels have also seen higher depreciation in recent years, in part due to the controversy surrounding the diesel emissions scandal.

https://fullycharged.show/blog/surprisingly-positive-news-on-electric-vehicle-depreciation/

On 29th August 2019, This Is Money ran an article that claimed that electric vehicles depreciate up to twice as quickly as petrol or diesel cars. Nothing could be further from the truth.

This one should be entitled cheap badly designed electric cars get hammered on residual values for now but all the good ones don;t.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a34739112/evs-get-hammered-on-residual-values-for-now/

Just like everything with electric cars—range, charge speed, market share—we expect residual values to go up in time as these vehicles are more widely adopted and accepted. Check out the Mach-E Club for a few more lines of residual values in the Mach-E’s various trims.

 

[Tenkaykev]

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/support/charging/Gen_3_Wall_Connector_Manual_UK.pdf

This is the installation manual for a tesla home wall charger. With a 230v single phase supply you need an output between 6A and 32A (obviously the higher you can go the faster the charging). A 3 phase supply is better and a 400v supply best (as far as I can see - not an electrician!).

Presumably as streetlights are being swapped to led, there is surplus power available for tapping.

Almost all UK homes have a single phase 240 volt supply. LED street lighting is more efficient than High Pressure Sodium, but as High power LED's are used in street lighting and High Pressure Sodium lamps are usually. 250 or 400 Watts there's not a lot of extra power floating around anyway.

 

[icowden]

Published depreciation figures don't tend to take into account older vehicles because none of the fleet operators are interested in them.
However, many of us will end up selling, if not buying, an older vehicle.
A tidy diesel engined car with 100,000 miles is still seen as having some life in it.
A tidy electric car with the same mileage will, rightly or wrongly, be seen as in need of a new battery pack, particularly if it is eight or 10 years old.

On this bit we agree mostly. A car with 100,000 miles even driven by a nice old granny in pristine condition is rarely worth very much at all. An EV on the other hand might raise concerns about how long the battery pack will last. However this risk is pretty transient and Tesla are working on their million mile battery which will greatly reduce EV costs and obviously last a *lot* longer.

https://electrek.co/2020/10/18/tesla-battery-test-results-over-2-million-miles/