Gels etc

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bozmandb9

Insert witty title here
I know you are all going to hate me for this but:riding a bike requires energy now where does the energy come from?
Sadly many of us have plenty of 'stored energy' reserves. That's why I do the fasted rides, though technically I'm way outside the optimal fat burning zone. Nice theory though, if it worked.
 

winjim

Smash the cistern
I know you are all going to hate me for this but:riding a bike requires energy now where does the energy come from?
Nuclear fusion.
 

Tin Pot

Guru
Sadly many of us have plenty of 'stored energy' reserves. That's why I do the fasted rides, though technically I'm way outside the optimal fat burning zone. Nice theory though, if it worked.
No, all of us do.

If you think that because you are fatter than some, that you don't need glucose to optimise exercise then you simply haven't yet learned enough about exercise.

We all have X amount of glycogen floating around our muscles at any given time. We start exercising and we all start running out of it. Our bodies start converting other sources of energy into glycogen as we run out, but this is not efficient and consequently our muscles cannot perform as well. Because they are not performing as well, we don't get the exercise we are trying to achieve to build them.

This is as true for you as it is for an Olympian.
 

bozmandb9

Insert witty title here
No, all of us do.

If you think that because you are fatter than some, that you don't need glucose to optimise exercise then you simply haven't yet learned enough about exercise.

We all have X amount of glycogen floating around our muscles at any given time. We start exercising and we all start running out of it. Our bodies start converting other sources of energy into glycogen as we run out, but this is not efficient and consequently our muscles cannot perform as well. Because they are not performing as well, we don't get the exercise we are trying to achieve to build them.

This is as true for you as it is for an Olympian.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you Tin Pot. If you take my fasted rides as an example, I do the ride (30-50 miles). It is conceivable that I may ride slightly faster if I were 'glucose optimised', however it's a group ride, really it would make no difference. However if I had glucose optimised, I would almost certainly burn less fat than I do by riding fasted.

I do get what you're saying, however you must see my point about burning fat, as an alternative to glucose optimisation. We run out of glucose, and one of the sources of energy (which is not as efficient admittedly), is excess body fat.
 

ayceejay

Guru
Location
Rural Quebec
Actually this is a still unploughed furrow and one that needs a lot more attention. The reason for my enigmatic post is that there is a common belief fostered by energy food makers that a rider starts empty and like an old steam train needs to fuel up as they go and I don't thing this is true.
 

Tin Pot

Guru
I'm afraid I must disagree with you Tin Pot. If you take my fasted rides as an example, I do the ride (30-50 miles). It is conceivable that I may ride slightly faster if I were 'glucose optimised', however it's a group ride, really it would make no difference. However if I had glucose optimised, I would almost certainly burn less fat than I do by riding fasted.

I do get what you're saying, however you must see my point about burning fat, as an alternative to glucose optimisation. We run out of glucose, and one of the sources of energy (which is not as efficient admittedly), is excess body fat.

I'm not sure where you are disagreeing.

The point I'm making is that your muscles won't work as hard, so you won't see as much fitness benefit as if you did consume glucose.

I'm not saying that you don't burn fat.
 

ayceejay

Guru
Location
Rural Quebec
Like I said this is a dangerous game to play especially when you have GCN as cheerleaders. Watch the video and tell me if they are saying to eat fat because this will fuel your ride or the your ride can be fuelled by fat stored on your body? One thing they did say that I agree with and that is metabolism is not a one size fits all deal so one person could ride on water only but another may need something more so be wary of general advice.
 

Tin Pot

Guru
I don't think GCN are trying to be reliable sports medical advisers.

Science on the other hand...
 

Tin Pot

Guru
Actually this is a still unploughed furrow and one that needs a lot more attention. The reason for my enigmatic post is that there is a common belief fostered by energy food makers that a rider starts empty and like an old steam train needs to fuel up as they go and I don't thing this is true.

There's a few hundred grams of glycogen stored in muscle tissue in an average healthy person. This gets burned up quicker as we exercise harder.

I often do "fasted" commutes. I get on the train for two hours without eating anything. I almost always do "fasted" working: going two, three maybe even four hours "fasted" before eating again.

Sometimes I do "fasted" walks to the shops - but only if I'm feeling lucky.

Even with a lot of people trying to use evidence and science, there's a lot of nonsense around.

When you are exercising hard, an average adult will burn through those stores calories pretty quickly. I burn ~900 calories per hour cycling, ~1,300 calories running. My performance, and any other human beings* performance, will tail off as the muscles run out of glycogen, and my body starts to find other sources of glycogen. With no glycogen immediately available my muscles start to slow, my performance reduces, and consequently the fitness benefits tail off. Muscular endurance is built by a series of stresses put on and recoveries of the muscles. I can no longer stress them as I am out of glycogen. The exercise benefits are evaporating.

As my body starts to convert fat to glycogen, at a much lower level of efficiency, I start to get a supply of glycogen to my muscles again - instead of shutting down completely, they can keep going at a much reduced stress and effectiveness.

None of this is affected by how thin or fat I am.


*Recent studies show some evidence that "fat adaptation" over a long period can increase metabolic efficiency of utilising fat as a glycogen source, this means that you can train your body to get more glycogen from a gram of fat, and that you don't need to have the cutover from glucose sources to fat sources untrained people would have. You cannot become metabolically efficient with fat by the occasional "fasted" ride.

There is no evidence that fat adaptation improves performance. There is tons of evidence that taking in carbs while exercising does improve performance.

There are potential benefits from less dependence on carbohydrates for athletes - dental health and diabetes being current concerns. this is not to say that a diet weighted towards fat is without health concerns.
 

Tin Pot

Guru
Just to throw something else into the mixer (a recovery drink perhaps) I listened to this on Radio 4 today. It's worth a listen if you have an interest in nutrition and endurance sports. Charcoal yoghurt anyone?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06zqd89

That and the first episode are fair coverage - but there's a lot of ideas being explored in nutrition at the moment.

This podcast is quite interesting and dispels a few myths reminding people of the basics of eating we seem to have forgot.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/endurance-planet/id73330188?mt=2&i=362408712
 

Andrew_P

In between here and there
Personally I think people who can't stomach a few gels are a bunch of pussies and need to HTFU. What are you, men or delicate flowers? Pfft.
I missed lunch a while back and had on my desk a SiS Gel which was given to me for free so rather than eat and then ride straight after I thought what the heck. Believe me if you want to ride anywhere near me post Gel you are more than welcome to give it a go, you certainly wouldn't want to be in my "draft"

Horrible things, I think it was the sweeteners that did me in, but I couldn't wait to get home.
 
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