Giant feels the chill from falling demand.

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I think @wafter and I are largely singing off the same hymn sheet - especially when it comes to EV. Though the fact we both trained as automotive engineers might have something to do with that...

Anyways, I lurk (but don't participate) on a few watch forums, and the same argument is being bandied about there, particularly when it comes to the high end stuff. Me? I prefer to spend modest amounts (the price of a takeaway pizza or similar) on the 'bay for good quality vintage mechanical watches that will, with the appropriate care, outlast me.

Back to bicycles though - of the three bikes I've bought since I returned to cycling, one was bought new because I fell in love with it, one was bought used from a forum member, and the other was picked up at the tip, stripped and then rebuilt to my own spec. Maybe being a shorter lady cyclist means that a lot of the marketing passes me by, because the vast majority of such bikes are too big for me anyway. Not that I wouldn't mind trying something carbon & di2, but for the sort of cycling I do, it's kind of pointless. As for kids bikes, unless you look at Frog, Isla and that ilk, it's a lot about show and not much about go.

Since, at the moment, I've more or less got a bike for every occasion i.e. fast (!) fizz, mud plugging and general / utility, I'm not even looking.

And as my grandad Arthur used to say, I'm too poor to buy cheap stuff.
 

Alex321

Veteran
Location
South Wales
Did Giant sponsor a top-flight race team recently? Those you mention did IIRC.
Giant were certainly the equals of Cannondale, Specialised and Trek at one time....

They have Liv Racing in the Women's World tour.

And yes BikeExchange (name changed to Team Jayco AlUla next year) ride Giant bikes
 
The bike industry is very mature, there's not much new under the sun and a decent steel bike will go on forever if looked after.. so the marketing muppets are always looking for new ways to try and separate us from our money - more gears, lighter bikes, electronics in places they IMO have no right to be...

...Despite being perfectly serviceable, so much stuff is binned simply because the marketing scumbags have persuaded unquestioning consumers that it's obsolete and to replace it with the next best thing - which is often anything but.. while there's often little financial penalty because we've been exploiting emerging labour markets for decades.

I wasn't entirely joking when I said that a used bike shop is the industry's worst nightmare. The "problem" for the bean counters and shareholders is that the bike industry is too sustainable; and as you said, a good steel bike can last a lifetime with care.

Enter the E-Bike, which has advantages for many, but for the aforementioned bean counters and shareholders offers a great way to make their products incompatible with others and hard, if not impossible, to repair for small shops and end users; hey, presto, a less sustainable, more wasteful product that will break down much sooner and need replacing.

This is just what the government are doing with cars - ostensibly in the name of the environment, but really it's just a cynical ploy to keep people buying ever-more-expensive, shorter-of-life vehicles...

Now finally there's the drive towards electric; stuff which is enormously expensive (so largely funded by debt) to the point of being out of reach of many.. the plan no doubt being to get most of the petrol cars off the road with increasingly draconian taxation. Everyone knows electric isn't sustainable however (limitations on battery tech, finite availability of resources, lack of infrastructure support) so I think this one will die on its arse before the government really want it to..
I'm glad to hear this from people who know what they're talking about. We get a lot of this hype, especially in Stuttgart where EV's are expected to offer a like-for-like replacement for cars, trucks and everything else, so we can just carry on with business as usual. I've long wondered at how this is supposed to work with my limited understanding of the resources and energy required but I was always told it would be fine and I was just being a tree hugging hippy, again, and everything would work out...
 
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DRM

Guru
Location
West Yorks
I wasn't entirely joking when I said that a used bike shop is the industry's worst nightmare. The "problem" for the bean counters and shareholders is that the bike industry is too sustainable; and as you said, a good steel bike can last a lifetime with care.

Enter the E-Bike, which has advantages for many, but for the aforementioned bean counters and shareholders offers a great way to make their products incompatible with others and hard, if not impossible, to repair for small shops and end users; hey, presto, a less sustainable, more wasteful product that will break down much sooner and need replacing.




I'm glad to hear this from people who know what they're talking about. We get a lot of this hype, especially in Stuttgart where EV's are expected to offer a like-for-like replacement for cars, trucks and everything else, so we can just carry on with business as usual. I've long wondered at how this is supposed to work with my limited understanding of the resources and energy requires but I was always told it would be fine and I was just being a tree hugging hippy, again, and everything would work out...

Not only that, but consider the extra VAT raised from such purchases, if they can push people into an EV that's more expensive than it's i.c equivalent, it's better for governments tax income, same with an E-Bike that costs more than a standard human powered equivalent.
 

wafter

I like steel bikes and I cannot lie..
Location
Oxford
I wasn't entirely joking when I said that a used bike shop is the industry's worst nightmare. The "problem" for the bean counters and shareholders is that the bike industry is too sustainable; and as you said, a good steel bike can last a lifetime with care.

Enter the E-Bike, which has advantages for many, but for the aforementioned bean counters and shareholders offers a great way to make their products incompatible with others and hard, if not impossible, to repair for small shops and end users; hey, presto, a less sustainable, more wasteful product that will break down much sooner and need replacing.
Absolutely - although I'd qualify the "too sustainable" with "to be a viable model to allow similar levels of economic exploitation to other industries". If left to its own devices every supply-and-demand economy should find its own equilibrium. However, in the dying days of capitalism the artificial manipulation of this equilibrium through marketing and legislation, in ever-more desperate attempts to maintain unsustainable perpetual grown is increasingly, painfully obvious.

This compromising of products is rife across pretty much all manufactured goods; with longevity taking by far the biggest hit. This doubly-serves the manufacturer through cheaper production costs and higher sales volumes. I totally agree about electric bikes - far less standardisation and greater complexity so lifespan can so much more easily be controlled by limiting third party and end-user ability to repair and spares provision. Plus of course they're a lot more expensive.

Sadly this attitude is also prevalent throughout the rest of the industry - most notably in terms of frame material, where marketing appears to have convinced *everyone* that saving mass is far more important than longevity, so fatigue-failure-prone ally and might-explode-without-warning CFRP rule the roost over far more durable and predictable steel.

Sure, buy CFRP if you're aware of the sacrifices that come with its lower mass and are happy to accept those for the (often minimal) improvement in speed. Quite why anyone still thinks making bikes out of ally by default is a good idea escapes me however - (other than the elephant in the room that it ain't going to last anywhere near as long as steel). I suspect the processing costs are more, too..

Remember the ideal promised by '50s automation; that robots would do everything and we could just sit back and relax? I bet that probably wouldn't have too far from the truth if we'd kept to our existing consumption habits. Instead we're kept spinning in that hamster wheel to buy ever more elaborate, unsustainable trinkets on the false, establishment-sponsored, marketing-driven assumption that these correlate with happiness; when in actual fact the reality is often the opposite.

I remember discussing a mate's mate who'd just bought a newish car on finance. The monthly repayments cost her about 20% of her wage; and not that society wishes to support this approach, but if you had the choice which would you rather - a 5 day week to pay for a car that'll be worth next to naff all in 10yrs, or buy a thousand quid banger outright and work a four day week instead..?

Environmental argument aside, speaking personally as someone who struggles with producivity and needs a lot of down time, I bitterly resent having to push myself well past my comfortable limits simply to exist in a world that's defined by irresposible, shallow and often debt-led spending and excess, with no place for those who distance themselves from such nastyness.

If people were less shallow, unquestioning and easy to manipulate we could all enjoy a far more sustainable, lower stress, sociable existance.


I'm glad to hear this from people who know what they're talking about. We get a lot of this hype, especially in Stuttgart where EV's are expected to offer a like-for-like replacement for cars, trucks and everything else, so we can just carry on with business as usual. I've long wondered at how this is supposed to work with my limited understanding of the resources and energy requires but I was always told it would be fine and I was just being a tree hugging hippy, again, and everything would work out...
I'm glad to hear this from someone else! Tbh I only have a loose grasp of the fundamentals, but if you ignore the offensively simplistic establishment line the "electric=green" and look below the surface to sources that actually know what they're talking about, you'll see there are all manner of holes in this mantra being raised by all manner of different individuals from a range of backgrounds.

It's just another massive con, and sadly people are, for whatever reason unable to see it or unwilling to accept it. Same as the wider environmental arguments - for decades we've had compelling evidence of our increasingly destructive effect on the planet, however society appears largely made up of people who are aware but can't be arsed to do anything about it. On top of that we have a vocal minority (often older men, it seems) who reject the whole thing out of hand as a conspiracy; bitterly attacking anyone who tries to address or even recognise such issues.. I can only assume this is because they lack the strength and emotional intelligence to admit their part in the situation, don't want their comfortable consumption curtailed by their conscience, or simply are resentful about their time on this earth coming to an end that they want to see it burn.

Even as the global situation becomes increasingly, obviously dire, sadly the one thing that's abundantly clear is that there's far too little appetite to effect meaningful change, either socially or politically. We keep coming up with fanciful ideas for more "sustainable" energy and dodges for the destruction we cause, but the bottom line is these are all flawed and the inescapable fact is is that there are simply far too many of us and we consume far too much..

As such it seems that our catastrophic trajectory is assured and the only way this madness will come to an end is when we do.

Apologies for the rant - here's to a happy and carefree new year :laugh:
 
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All uphill

Still rolling along
Location
Somerset
"I want thing to be different, but for everything to stay the same"

That explains a lot to me; replacing petrol cars with electric cars rather than moving away from the whole idea of everyone having their own two ton mobile living rooms.

The focus is still on increasing desire for material consumption, rather than increasing efficiency and contentment.
 

Ming the Merciless

There is no mercy
Photo Winner
Location
Inside my skull
O, how limited are the resources for electric bikes!
What boon to humanity these wonders provide!
A way to travel 'neath the sun or rain,
Without fear of oil or gas and gain.

But alas! How few the resources be!
Without the parts, the bikes cannot be.
The batteries and motors, the wires and frames,
Are in short supply, with little to gain.

O, 'tis a pity that such a boon
Must be stymied due to lack of boon.
If only resources were plentiful,
The electric bikes could be plentiful.
 
Enter the E-Bike, which has advantages for many, but for the aforementioned bean counters and shareholders offers a great way to make their products incompatible with others and hard, if not impossible, to repair for small shops and end users; hey, presto, a less sustainable, more wasteful product that will break down much sooner and need replacing.
Interestingly (or not) but I built an ebike over Christmas.

I opted to get a kit because I didn't want to buy something that with standards which were too weird. I certainly don't trust Bosch, for example, to make all the current £5000 bikes obsolete by removing support for their motors. And the spares situation for many branded ebikes is shocking. Like cars, they aren't meant to be fixed.

Now, I am a bit concerned about the future of kits because there are so many people who ride bikes that are obviously closer in performance to a small moped than a bike - I am just waiting for some Jeremy Clarkson type to start talking about the "menace" of some fifteen year olds on 1000w ebikes (if they were ten years older it would have been stolen 125s).

It could be the end of ebike kits. That would be very convenient for the big bike manufacturers, wouldn't it?
 
The premium price is what puts me off paying for EV at the moment plus slightly tangible but there was a case nearby where someone bought a new car and less than an hour later a dear ran into it and left it in a deary state, it was one antler of an accident (sorry!); hopefully they had GAP insurance, otherwise that was one expensive single use purchase!
 
OP
OP
Cycleops

Cycleops

Legendary Member
Location
Accra, Ghana
Interestingly (or not) but I built an ebike over Christmas.

I opted to get a kit because I didn't want to buy something that with standards which were too weird. I certainly don't trust Bosch, for example, to make all the current £5000 bikes obsolete by removing support for their motors. And the spares situation for many branded ebikes is shocking. Like cars, they aren't meant to be fixed.

Now, I am a bit concerned about the future of kits because there are so many people who ride bikes that are obviously closer in performance to a small moped than a bike - I am just waiting for some Jeremy Clarkson type to start talking about the "menace" of some fifteen year olds on 1000w ebikes (if they were ten years older it would have been stolen 125s).

It could be the end of ebike kits. That would be very convenient for the big bike manufacturers, wouldn't it?
I think that's the way to go with e-bikes. If I were to take the plunge it what I'd do.
 
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