Giro d'Italia 2025 spoilers

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Dorset Boy

Well-Known Member
Simon Yates knocked just under 3 minutes off the previous KoM up the Finestre.
That doesn't excuse Del Toro and Carapaz not working together to keep the gap under control and manageable, but that sort of speed up the climb surely had a huge impact on the result, as well as WvA's effort in the valley.
 

T4tomo

Legendary Member
Simon Yates knocked just under 3 minutes off the previous KoM up the Finestre.
That doesn't excuse Del Toro and Carapaz not working together to keep the gap under control and manageable, but that sort of speed up the climb surely had a huge impact on the result, as well as WvA's effort in the valley.

He learnt from his previous experience, when he was feeling good and kept picking up stage wins and time bonuses for the hell of it. He barely attacked all week and ride within himself on the mega steep stuff and didn't follow some explosive attacks. Then yesterday when it donor die he had the kegs and the engine to go high tempo up that hours climb.

Sure Carapaz and DelT were daft for looking at each other - DelT should have responded, 2nd or ³rd for Cara didn't matter so much. But they didn't have the legs to match him, and then they just gave up and messed around whilst Yates nailed it with Wout and on the final climb
 

Pinno718

Über Member
Location
Way out West
...but outside of that UAE often seem to not know how to race when Pogacar isn't there. Maybe they have suspect tactics at every race, since Pogacar never wins on tactical brilliance, because he never needs to (he is definitely a smart racer personally). Pogacar just goes and wins whenever he wants to and UAE don't really need to scheme up a master plan when he races.

Not sure I agree with this bit. They are usually omnipresent. In the same 'breath' you mentioned UAE's problems. UAE did not field their strongest squad (for obvious reasons). Also, 2 heads in a team rarely works. It leaves domestiques in a state of constant flux.
My take is that in these Tik Tok tours, the depth of endurance of an individual is rarely tested. Yes it can be a fast stage - we've had stages of less than 4 hours and so recovery time is greater. What's 4 hours on a bike to a pro ffs?
Yesterdays stage was what, 6000m of elevation(?) and over 200 kms. This stage literally sorted boys from men.
IMHO, these short stages suit explosive riders. Over this Giro, how many times did Del Torro or Carapaz attack and how many times was Yates left behind? Until of course, endurance won over explosive attacks because it's hard to be explosive multiple times and still make it over that course and distance.
Yates played it cool.
Yes, you're right about EF but Carapaz rode naively - attacking far too far out at times. He only just kept up with a 21 year old.
 

Milzy

Guru
Geraint Thomas: “Do you need experience to know that third place is riding away from you and if you stop pedaling, he is going to gain time? Mate, my son Macs would know that, he is 5 years old.”
 

Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
I don't think you'll get a better picture of the power of the draft than the video of Wout pulling Yates along. You could see and almost feel the effort WVA was putting in and Yates was clearly relaxed and chilling.

To be honest, for all the riding I've done, I don't think I've ever experienced any benefit from drafting - at least not that I could notice and feel. I don't ride fast enough, I nearly always ride alone, and if not alone I don't ride close enough. So although I'm well aware that it's a thing, and know it intellectually, it's not something I know physically.
 

phreak

Active Member
Simon Yates knocked just under 3 minutes off the previous KoM up the Finestre.
That doesn't excuse Del Toro and Carapaz not working together to keep the gap under control and manageable, but that sort of speed up the climb surely had a huge impact on the result, as well as WvA's effort in the valley.
I think WvA beat Froome's 2018 time as well. Saying that, Reichanbach's grandma could probably beat 2025 Froome.
 
OP
OP
Adam4868

Adam4868

Legendary Member
To be honest, for all the riding I've done, I don't think I've ever experienced any benefit from drafting - at least not that I could notice and feel. I don't ride fast enough, I nearly always ride alone, and if not alone I don't ride close enough. So although I'm well aware that it's a thing, and know it intellectually, it's not something I know physically.
Try it behind a bus ....as an added bonus you can warm up from the exhaust fumes in the winter.
We're not electric in the North just yet 😁
 

mididoctors

Senior Member
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Simon Yates knocked just under 3 minutes off the previous KoM up the Finestre.
That doesn't excuse Del Toro and Carapaz not working together to keep the gap under control and manageable, but that sort of speed up the climb surely had a huge impact on the result, as well as WvA's effort in the valley.

If that's correct carapaz went faster than the old record too as he was only 1:45 behind at the top
 

No Ta Doctor

Senior Member
I feel like this is one of the rare times I completely disagree with you both. EF don't have the team strength to do much really. They did a fairly feeble version of a Sky train leaving Carapaz to attack pretty much on his own, as he has to always do. They lack the budget to sport a true GC challenge. They are a team of stage hunters.
Carapaz attacks in his usual way and del Toro closes him with relative ease. Del Toro could have snapped closed him each time, but chose to not do so to save his legs a bit on a 60 min climb. However, he never closed Yates who attacked multiple times always leaving that to Carapaz or Gee. I personally didn't understand why Carapaz even closed down Yates twice, since he should have left that to del Toro.
When you are in the leasers jersey without teammates, you will get 1-2'ed by others. You still have to cover attacks and ride. Del Toro never did on Finestre.
He was entirely fixated on Carapaz. Yates may have been the strongest, but he was able to go because del Toro let him go and Carapaz had already closed him down twice and had attacked himself twice. It was on del Toro to defend the Maglia Rosa. There is a good chance both del Toro and Carapaz were stronger than he was, Yates simply benefitted from being allowed to go by del Toro.
Carapaz then again started to ride when Yates overtook him on GC, but was still behind del Toro. Even then del Toro didn't ride or pull and doggedly stayed behind Carapaz.
When Yates overtook del Toro on GC, del Toro still didn't really ride. He was definitely on the limit, but not cooked as he could still respond to Carapaz with relative ease.
Only on the descent and the flat did del Toro begin to ride, when the race was already lost. By then Carapaz had resigned himself to the podium. I'm sure he took it personally, that del Toro only covered his attacks.
It was on del Toro to ride. Sometimes you don't have a great option; you just have to pick the lesser evil. He could have played it cool for a while on Finestre, but when Yates had 30s he needed to start riding. There is absolutely no way around it. That is where you rope Carapaz into pulling as well to defend 2nd and where you say that you two will duke it out on Sestriere for the win, but let's get Yates back etc.

By and large I don't think Carapaz was the strongest rider. I think del Toro was the best and strongest rider among the Giro GC riders. Carapaz does his flashy attacks, but people can often (not always) close him if they just slowly bridge back. Outside of his stage win, he never got true distance off of his attacks.
UAE needed to have a rider with WVA, so del Toro can ride to tempo and cover as much as possible on Finestre. The UAE domestique then neutralizes the rest of the race and most likely del Toro will be able to limit the damage on the last climb and retain pink. Even if that wasn't possible, del Toro needed to ride to tempo once Yates got 20-30s and try and rope Carapaz into helping, which he stupidly would have done or was already doing, just like Gee.
I have absolutely no idea what McNulty was doing this stage or any stage for that matter. Majka was phenomenal yesterday, but outside of that UAE often seem to not know how to race when Pogacar isn't there. Maybe they have suspect tactics at every race, since Pogacar never wins on tactical brilliance, because he never needs to (he is definitely a smart racer personally). Pogacar just goes and wins whenever he wants to and UAE don't really need to scheme up a master plan when he races.

Del Toro rode a phenomenal race. He is an incredible talent, but both he and UAE messed up this stage. When Simon Yates lost the Giro on Finestre it was legs, here it was bad tactics. Del Toro might have lost even with good tactics (to Carapaz), but he'd have at least gone down swinging. Today they lost without truly trying; in so far that riding a 3 week race at age 21 and riding the last two stages at your limit is not trying. But sometimes riding at your limit isn't enough, you have to decide on when to ride over that limit to limit the loss that decides between winning and losing.

I think we can both agree that Del Toro faced a genuine dilemma - he didn't have any good options, just bad and worse... Which of those is which we'll disagree on, but worth noting he came away with 2nd rather than 3rd, which for a 21 yr old in his second GT is pretty good.

In reality, UAE screwed this up, as @mididoctors has emphasised, by a) letting WVA get in the break, b) not getting a UAE in and then c) not controlling it, so Wout was available for the descent. If they'd kept the break at 3-4 minutes or so then Wout would have pulled a bit up Finestre and then popped. Presumably they wanted the break gone to get bonus seconds out of the picture (sprint halfway up Finestre and on the stage).

The next mistake, possibly, was Del Toro closing Carapaz himself at the first attack, instead of using his team, though EF had been smashing it so I'm not sure what he had to work with at that point, will have to rewatch that.

I think it's pretty clear that with such a long hard climb Del Toro and his DS were worried about his ability to cope with it and were genuinely concerned he might pop. He was very conservative in how he closed (progressive rather than snap closing). He genuinely believed that if he worked on the climb he'd be mugged by Carapaz and the elastic would snap. Given Carapaz was throwing in attacks all over the place (e.g. when Gee caught up and was leading them, why Gee? Why Carapaz?) he was definitely not wrong about this. Carapaz would have gone over the top, snapped the elastic, and given his descending would likely have opened the gap further on the descent. The moment Del Toro went over his limit he'd be mincemeat.

Simon was incredibly strong and underestimated by everyone, inc. notable posters here ;)

When they come over the top everything is still marginal, Yates had what, 1:40? They played a bit of call-my-bluff and neither were bluffing, Yates met Wout and the time gap explodes in a very short space of time. Game over.
 

mididoctors

Senior Member
I don't think you'll get a better picture of the power of the draft than the video of Wout pulling Yates along. You could see and almost feel the effort WVA was putting in and Yates was clearly relaxed and chilling.

To be honest, for all the riding I've done, I don't think I've ever experienced any benefit from drafting - at least not that I could notice and feel. I don't ride fast enough, I nearly always ride alone, and if not alone I don't ride close enough. So although I'm well aware that it's a thing, and know it intellectually, it's not something I know physically.

You haven't been riding fast enough
 
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