Good Greg Lemond article

[Chuffy]

I recall well that Lemond was never popular in his day and I know a lot of people didn't like him. He has this need to be heard and get involved. Nevertherless, there's no questioning his sports physiology knowledge and if you can put your dislike to one side and listen to his words cold, you'd see he speaks sense.

Why not? He clearly loves the sport.

Being a newb I don't have a lot of baggage regarding Lemond et al. Having seen some footage where he asks someone who is crowding him whether they want a punch in the face I have to say that the rider he most reminds me of is dear old Cuddly 'tread on my dog and I'll cut your head off' Evans. But the more I find out about Lemond, the more I like him, for his honesty and passion.

 

[Crackle]

>Last year there were climbers doing 450 watts but weighing 58-60kg - that's nearly 8 watts per kilo,"

This is what interests me, now, in pro cycling.

Is something other, to be put towards, for this improvement

It interests me too and I'm starting to try and understand the relationship of lactate levels, VO2 max, blood gases, fast twitch/slow twitch etc.

There has also been quite dramatic improvements in training techniques in the last decade(?) with the more common use of power meters but from what I've read so far, it's more training to maximise your average output and not blow it with high wattage output at the wrong moments and hence see your wattage tail off on a climb for instance.

Noodley posted the link in another thread to a discussion on BR about Lemond saying that the kind of average powers being seen now are unbelievable i.e. Armstong producing something like a 480 watt average over his '99 tour, yet having a lower VO2 max than Lemond who could only achieve around 390. In my rather simple understanding a high VO2 max means you are capable of getting a larger amount of oxygen to the muscles and hence maintaining a higher averge power output: It is however not just that simple. I also read somewhere else that Armstong had a very high natural effeciency of dealing with lactate buildup. I'd love to know how that relates but as yet I haven't read enough.

 

[Crackle]

Lactic acid. On our very own forum. where are these clever souls when you need them?

 

[Crackle]

Hah! Just for a laugh I found a way of estimating my VO2 max. I reckon it's somewhere between 43-50. So Lemonds' was 90 and Armstrong 83ish. I don't think I'll bother planning a late entry into pro cycling

Links to do it.

Power calculator here http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm#pv

Forum page with calc http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-176352.html

 

[Chuffy]

Hah! Just for a laugh I found a way of estimating my VO2 max. I reckon it's somewhere between 43-50. So Lemonds' was 90 and Armstrong 83ish. I don't think I'll bother planning a late entry into pro cycling

Links to do it.

Power calculator here http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm#pv

Forum page with calc http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-176352.html

Thanks for that....I think.
Even if I lose 10kg I'm still going to be gasping like a dying fish...

 

[yenrod]

I recall well that Lemond was never popular in his day and I know a lot of people didn't like him. He has this need to be heard and get involved. Nevertherless, there's no questioning his sports physiology knowledge and if you can put your dislike to one side and listen to his words cold, you'd see he speaks sense.

Exactly Crack - from what he's talking of in my quote from Eurosport - hwich I've heard him talk of before.

Like, come on, if we all rode 4hrs a day days on end week in week out - we'd be pretty good. Yet What Lemond is saying: you've got to, I suppose, think a bit: - 60-70 kgs and banging out 450 watts in a tour (on climbs - mountains) whereby you are are already doing an average of a 100 mls a day @ 30mph which is already pulling lots of energy & power.

Its that 'last bit of effort' thats soo contentious of human endeavour and performance thats up for discussion, will it ever be ended. I feel it will - but many years will pass before it does as the system is soo fragmented and that ole devil - trust comes into the fray yet again, never mind imposing bio-metric passorts, on the athletes.

 

[yenrod]

Hah! Just for a laugh I found a way of estimating my VO2 max. I reckon it's somewhere between 43-50. So Lemonds' was 90 and Armstrong 83ish. I don't think I'll bother planning a late entry into pro cycling

Links to do it.

Power calculator here http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm#pv

Forum page with calc http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-176352.html

I got 64 on this..going by my weight of 85kgs (though i'm losing' - so I hope i'll be 80kgs next summer), a 40km p/hr example of speed - a resultant Power of 431 and as I understood it 85kgs (weight) by 431 = 5.07 - this is PowertoWeight.

So its;

12 x PTW + 3.3 = 64.14 Vo2 MAX - generally.

 

[yenrod]

Just thinking - if B.Riis would have done these sums and then added in EPO like he did - its hardly surprising he won the tour after accelerating, turning around and grinning on a climb (at M.Indurain) then accelerating and again & again - that would have seen off most cyclist never mind a pro'.

Though, what he did in the Amstel Gold (I think) - '97 when he rode away from everyone...was what an added form of drug can do to a human being.

 

[John the Monkey]

Yenrod, the corrollary to that might be the story Willy Voet tells in "Breaking the Chain", of Virenque begging the team to let him try a new mixture of PEDs - the team doctor refused (as it was untested) but Virenque insisted. According to Voet, they gave him a placebo, and Virenque rode one of his best TTs of the season - so you have to wonder how much is mental, i.e. the rider thinking they have the advantage over their opponents, and how much chemical.

Regarding LeMond, I heard a lot of people say that that press conference was the wrong venue to question the Armstrong approach, although you have to wonder how else he's to do that. It raises a number of interesting questions - should Armstrong be allowed to dictate which tests are conducted, or should other people be able to say "what about this?" and impose elements of the testing programme on Armstrong and the team?

 

[mondobongo]

armstrong has to be held to question the same as anyone else and the majority of those questions are going to come at a press conference. Its unlikely that armstrong is going to invite Mad Uncle Greg (Good title Chuffy) onto the bus for a friendly chat.

 

[Crackle]

Just thinking - if B.Riis would have done these sums and then added in EPO like he did - its hardly surprising he won the tour after accelerating, turning around and grinning on a climb (at M.Indurain) then accelerating and again & again - that would have seen off most cyclist never mind a pro'.

It was a top moment that. At the time I remember the hairs on the back of my neck standing up and me on the edge of my seat and even though now, I know he was cheating, it's still a top moment, how paradoxical is that

Incidentally yenners, you get a better idea of power output if you know your time up a fixed length hill gradient. Saying that, remind me not to go riding with you without the aid of a tow rope

 

[Crackle]

Yenrod, the corrollary to that might be the story Willy Voet tells in "Breaking the Chain", of Virenque begging the team to let him try a new mixture of PEDs - the team doctor refused (as it was untested) but Virenque insisted. According to Voet, they gave him a placebo, and Virenque rode one of his best TTs of the season - so you have to wonder how much is mental, i.e. the rider thinking they have the advantage over their opponents, and how much chemical

That's the fascination isn't it. You know that you yourself are capable of such moments of pure psychological grit so it should be no surprise that top cyclists are, it's just their ability to repeat it day after day that begins to raise suspiscions. Still in terms of power output I wonder what extra power the yellow jersey gives you?

 

[Keith Oates]

If LeMond thinks he has a better method of testing/proving a rider is cheating, he would be much better off convincing the UCI, WADA and all other official test controllers. Telling Armstrong, or any other active cyclist for that matter, at a public meeting full of non technical testing people, is not the place to make the claim IMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TimDanaher]

Yenrod --

This might spur you on in your weight loss programme... I'm 74kg / 180 cm, and plugging in my best time for a 3K pursuit, to produce 41kph, I only had to sustain 365 watts... interesting.

You will now all be able to work out my derisory 'best' time.

Crackle, thanks for those links.. +1.

 

[John the Monkey]

Keith, if the press conference is partly about testing methodology, and how the transparency of that is going to prove a rider's cleanliness (in terms of dopage), I think questions about that method, and about (possibly) superior methods are valid. I forget how the PC went, but I think that the testing regime was first brought up by the Armstrong team (apologies if that's incorrect - it was certainly mentioned as part of the approach to the comeback, in any case) - if they're then saying this is a proof a clean approach to the 2009 season, surely it's valid to offer alternative methods as stronger proofs, and question why they aren't being used/suggest they could be?

There's a follow up piece on BikeRadar, incidentally; http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/interview-greg-lemond-18929