"Heavy mileage" and "penetrative spray" = replacement 18 month old rear wheel!

[Kell]

What I'm getting at is that as a rider it's very unlikely the OP has managed to get penetrating fluid anywhere near the interior of the hub.

What I think is wrong of them is that when a part fails and they don't know the cause for them point the finger at the user.

If they genuinely thought the OP had caused the damage they wouldn't have replaced it.

If everyone else is thinking that 2,500 miles is acceptable for a hub to fail then you've got waaaaay lower expectations than me.

My last bike did over 10,000 miles on the same pair of wheels in commuting duty, and when the frame cracked, the only thing I kept were the wheels as they were still perfect.

And not only that, they were only £125 for the pair instead of the rather more expensive £170 for just the rear.

Yes I know the wheels are smaller, so they make more revolutions, but if you read my last comment on the thread I posted about my rim splitting, I'd just watched the Greg Wallace programme about the Brompton factory and the MD said they make the wheels particulary strong to cope with commuting.

Not in my opinion.

 

[Drago]

Does it matter where the finger points, just so long as he gets his wheel? He's no worse off, got the result he wanted. I've long since come to terms with myself and stopped caring what anyone thinks of me.

 

[mitchibob]

What happened to the bottom bracket?

It was knackered. A lot of sideways play in the cranks and a noticeable grinding when putting a lot of effort in.

Now noticing a clicky pedal, and am not doing a good job of stopping myself changing to some half'n'half SPD pedals. Funnily enough, it's not the folding pedal that's clicky, as I really thought that'd be the first to go.

 

[Kell]

Eh? Brompton's warranty were presented with a failed component. They replaced the whole wheel for a new one and made an effort - given the limited evidence that they had available to them - to understand why the component had failed. I fail to see what more they might have done.

Actually what they've done is refused a warranty claim and given a new wheel as a 'goodwill gesture.'

I can see why some people might think this is the same thing, or that it doesn't matter but it makes a massive difference in terms of QA. It gets marked down as a customer error rather than a parts failure.

It's like sending a steak back because it's past its sell by date and rancid and the chef grudgingly cooking you another one. Then saying it wasn't his fault for sending the steak out, but your fault for putting too much salt on it.

The end result is that you still get a steak, but now all of a sudden it's your fault not his.

Don't get me wrong. I still think the Brompton is the best compromise for commuting, I just find the fact that it's evolved rather than being reinvented over the years and they still haven't managed to iron out the problem areas a little puzzling.

 

[berylthebrompton]

It was knackered. A lot of sideways play in the cranks and a noticeable grinding when putting a lot of effort in.

Now noticing a clicky pedal, and am not doing a good job of stopping myself changing to some half'n'half SPD pedals. Funnily enough, it's not the folding pedal that's clicky, as I really thought that'd be the first to go.

My non-folding pedal started to click under load, the dealer said it was worn(?), Within a day it had come back, starting to wonder if its the BB.

 

[mitchibob]

If everyone else is thinking that 2,500 miles is acceptable for a hub to fail then you've got waaaaay lower expectations than me.

I think you're right. I'd expect considerable more milage than that out of one of those hubs. When I briefly worked in a bike shop, the first wheel I had to rebuild had a very similar hub, that was pretty ancient, but in perfect working order. The guy that owned the shop explained that he'd done loads of rebuilds for sturmey archers, because the hubs outlast the rims by decades, so it was cheaper to get them rebuilt.

Yes I know the wheels are smaller, so they make more revolutions, but if you read my last comment on the thread I posted about my rim splitting, I'd just watched the Greg Wallace programme about the Brompton factory and the MD said they make the wheels particulary strong to cope with commuting.
Not in my opinion.

Strong enough for 'Rugger Buggers' or something I believe. I have to say, I'm very impressed with the quality of the wheels, considering what mine have been through so far. As much as I've tried to adjust my route to get rid of some of the rougher roads and speed-humps, there is sometimes no avoiding certain drains or pot-holes, and with small wheels, they can be really nasty, and I'm surprised at how well they've held up.

I'm disappointed that bottom bracket went so quickly on mine. The standard front tyre also seemed a little thin when I switched Marathons in December (although I do have a reasonably heavy T-Bag on it most days). The rest of the bike seems to be pretty well put together to me. Just needs a little tightening and adjusting of a couple of bits and pieces, and keeping properly cleaned and lubricated.

I'm still not sure what 'Riding Hard' is on a Brompton though. It was all hard for the first few months after not riding for 25 years.

 

[mitchibob]

My non-folding pedal started to click under load, the dealer said it was worn(?), Within a day it had come back, starting to wonder if its the BB.

Check if there's any play in the cranks, from side to side. In my case, it only happened in certain crank positions to start with, so I wondered if I was imagining it, as I'd get off, give them a pull, and they'd be fine, then get back on, and notice it again. Some days it seemed better than others, but eventually, was annoying me enough to just get it replaced, especially the slight grinding feeling under load.

 

[berylthebrompton]

Check if there's any play in the cranks, from side to side. In my case, it only happened in certain crank positions to start with, so I wondered if I was imagining it, as I'd get off, give them a pull, and they'd be fine, then get back on, and notice it again. Some days it seemed better than others, but eventually, was annoying me enough to just get it replaced, especially the slight grinding feeling under load.

 

[mickle]

Actually what they've done is refused a warranty claim and given a new wheel as a 'goodwill gesture.'

I can see why some people might think this is the same thing, or that it doesn't matter but it makes a massive difference in terms of QA. It gets marked down as a customer error rather than a parts failure.

It's like sending a steak back because it's past its sell by date and rancid and the chef grudgingly cooking you another one. Then saying it wasn't his fault for sending the steak out, but your fault for putting too much salt on it.

The end result is that you still get a steak, but now all of a sudden it's your fault not his.

Don't get me wrong. I still think the Brompton is the best compromise for commuting, I just find the fact that it's evolved rather than being reinvented over the years and they still haven't managed to iron out the problem areas a little puzzling.

At the risk of repeating myself: Brompton's warranty department were presented with a failed component. They replaced the whole wheel for a new one and made an effort - given the limited evidence that they had available to them - to understand why the component had failed. I fail to see what more they might have done.

There are many brands whose reputation, when it comes to warranty, is terrible. I'll not name them here. But Brompton isn't one of them, Brompton is in the premier league when it comes to warranty.

As a retail department manager I am often called upon to have the final word on warranty claims where a customer has refused to accept the decision on a warranty claim of one of my junior colleagues. It's one of my areas of special expertise. I've been doing this for a long time and I've watched a lot of CSI. After 30 years of working in bike shops I reckon fully 50% of all warranty claims are bogus, where customers have farked something up through ineptitude, accident or neglect and tried to pull the wool over our eyes. What they fail to take into account is that we're better at this than them and we very often see right through their lies. No-one is in the business of actively trying to pish customers off, and most of us in specialty retail know that the delivery of good 'customer service' is where it's possible to create and build solid relationships. because we want to retain our customer, where there is any doubt we tend to err on the customer's side. If we cannot identify the cause of a problem we'll make a best guess as to the cause. Which is what Brompton have done. There are only three possible narratives to explain the part's failure:

1. There was a one-off problem with an individual component, or
2. There's an inherent problem with the design or manufacture of that whole component line or
3. The customer's use or abuse of the component.

Mass production and modern quality assurance makes #1 unlikely. Presumably it's not #2 - that these hubs are failing in great numbers because the industry would have heard about it. Unless... this was among the first and this is just the tip of an emerging warranty iceberg. So, from Brompton's viewpoint, whether right or wrong, it looks like customer error.

We had a customer recently who broke his expensive recumbent by doing something stupid to it. We knew he'd done something stupid because the evidence was there for all to see. The manufacturer, quote rightly refused to warranty the frame. Nevertheless, and rather than argue with a man who is dying from terminal cancer we went ahead, at our cost, with a repair which involved removing a knackered trailer bracket and welding a plate over the hole. In the end, thanks to the skill of our subcontracted fabricator, the repair was invisible. It far exceeded our expectaions and we were delighted to be able to give him his trike back fixed to an extremely high standard. Was he grateful? Was he fark. He even started a thread on a popular Facebook group slagging off the manufacturer and us and telling anyone who would listen that the bikes were shoot and the manufacturer were charlitans.

 

[berylthebrompton]

Thanks for everyone's opinions. It's very interesting to see the polar-opposite views from everyone

I also agree with people concerns of the mileage of some Brompton parts, and will have to see what the future brings. But I agree with the people who are saying "chalk it up, the issues solved, onwards and upwards".

At the risk of repeating myself: Brompton's warranty department were presented with a failed component. They replaced the whole wheel for a new one and made an effort - given the limited evidence that they had available to them - to understand why the component had failed. I fail to see what more they might have done.

There are many brands whose reputation, when it comes to warranty, is terrible. I'll not name them here. But Brompton isn't one of them, Brompton is in the premier league when it comes to warranty.

As a retail department manager I am often called upon to have the final word on warranty claims where a customer has refused to accept the decision on a warranty claim of one of my junior colleagues. It's one of my areas of special expertise. I've been doing this for a long time and I've watched a lot of CSI. After 30 years of working in bike shops I reckon fully 50% of all warranty claims are bogus, where customers have farked something up through ineptitude, accident or neglect and tried to pull the wool over our eyes. What they fail to take into account is that we're better at this than them and we very often see right through their lies. No-one is in the business of actively trying to pish customers off, and most of us in specialty retail know that the delivery of good 'customer service' is where it's possible to create and build solid relationships. because we want to retain our customer, where there is any doubt we tend to err on the customer's side. If we cannot identify the cause of a problem we'll make a best guess as to the cause. Which is what Brompton have done. There are only three possible narratives to explain the part's failure:

1. There was a one-off problem with an individual component, or
2. There's an inherent problem with the design or manufacture of that whole component line or
3. The customer's use or abuse of the component.

Mass production and modern quality assurance makes #1 unlikely. Presumably it's not #2 - that these hubs are failing in great numbers because the industry would have heard about it. Unless... this was among the first and this is just the tip of an emerging warranty iceberg. So, from Brompton's viewpoint, whether right or wrong, it looks like customer error.

We had a customer recently who broke his expensive recumbent by doing something stupid to it. We knew he'd done something stupid because the evidence was there for all to see. The manufacturer, quote rightly refused to warranty the frame. Nevertheless, and rather than argue with a man who is dying from terminal cancer we went ahead, at our cost, with a repair which involved removing a knackered trailer bracket and welding a plate over the hole. In the end, thanks to the skill of our subcontracted fabricator, the repair was invisible. It far exceeded our expectaions and we were delighted to be able to give him his trike back fixed to an extremely high standard. Was he grateful? Was he fark. He even started a thread on a popular Facebook group slagging off the manufacturer and us and telling anyone who would listen that the bikes were shoot and the manufacturer were charlitans.

I am a technician for a high-end computer and mobile phone manufacturer, and my job for the last 8 years has been to deal directly with customers warranty claims. They have a high expectation of customer service and quality, as do I. Which Is why I paid what I paid for a Brompton. For that reason, and applying my experience, I completely disagree with your disregard of #1 being a possibility. Arguably, I would be fine with this conclusion: there was a one off issue with this part, it was replaced under your warranty, and you shouldn't have the issue again with this one. I replace parts every day because they fail. Not because they are poorly designed or have inherent problems, but because the more something is made, the higher the odds of one or two of them being defective. The best testers are the general public. They will find problems that designers and engineers have missed. And customers are okay with this, as long as its sorted efficiently. But as the manufacturer, we designed the product. We are the best people to determine if something is consumed, abused or failed. The same position Brompton are in. Therefore Brompton should be able to neatly fall into a camp: a warranty failure, a consumed part, or abuse. Have a foot in two camps does not instill faith if there are future problems, and unfortunately takes away any of the kudos the would rightly deserve for fixing it efficiently, at no cost. With reference to customer service, we can both agree that rightly or wrongly blaming a customer has never increase customer loyalty. Sometimes this is necessary, but if your aren't 100% sure then why would you cast blame to a customer? Nothing is gained.

In conclusion, I suppose the difference between your story and this one is you went above and beyond and fixed it, and were magnanimous in doing your good deed. Shame your customer didn't have to awareness to see this and be thankful accordingly.

 

[burntoutbanger]

I used to have a position on the factory floor in manufacturing, we made filters.
They were supposed to conform to three measures: size, weight and a pressure test. Frequently the machines making the filters didn't run very well and the filters produced weren't coming from the machine 'in spec'.
These filters were put in the same boxes and sold to the same customers as the filters that had come off the machine 'in spec'. This was known about as far up through management as I could tell.

The thought that mass production and modern QA mean that things manufactured in factories are rarely to fail is just laughable!

 

[mickle]

I used to have a position on the factory floor in manufacturing, we made filters.
They were supposed to conform to three measures: size, weight and a pressure test. Frequently the machines making the filters didn't run very well and the filters produced weren't coming from the machine 'in spec'.
These filters were put in the same boxes and sold to the same customers as the filters that had come off the machine 'in spec'. This was known about as far up through management as I could tell.

The thought that mass production and modern QA mean that things manufactured in factories are rarely to fail is just laughable!

I work in the bicycle industry. Excluding electronic devices and ePAS our warranty levels across the board on frames, components and accessories are infinitesimally small. Less than one half of one percent I'd guess. I worked for a short time as a fitter for a bathroom retailer and was dumbfounded by the warranty rates. My then boss reckoned that it ran at close to 15%. That was across the board: taps and fittings, pans, cisterns, baths and basins, tiles, showers, trays and screens. 15% of everything they sold came back in under warranty. If you wanted to know why bathroom products are so expensive...

 

[12boy]

Be interesting to see how you do with your new wheel. Hopefully it will last for many years to come.

 

[Blue Hills]

Ungrateful much?

Beryl's was an honest and reasonable post.
And she was asking fair questions of generally helpful folk on here.
No need to be snarky.



Declaration of interest - i have an old brommie and hence am interested in the thread. Have had no similar issues with mine but then i see cyclechat as a nice way of sharing experience and knowledge.

Have a nice mickleday.

 

[Blue Hills]

This sort of thing is why I have always liked cartridge bearing hubs, headsets and bottom brackets. Instead of saving a pound or two off total bike weight by investing in TI parts I'd rather have maintenance free components, although once I'd gotten them I'd probably want some TI parts too!

You might change your view on such a generalisation if you had owned a dahon speed pro. I won't bore you with the story of my front wheel hub, headset - both cartridge bearings.