Help identify a 1940s British frame

[rogerzilla]

The guy who sold it to me reckons it dates from 1949 (I'm not convinced) and was made in the Birmingham area. I've only ever seen these pointy rear fork-ends on an Ellis-Briggs but it doesn't have an Ellis-Briggs frame number. It's been thickly powdercoated and I'll probably get it blasted to see if there are any other identifying marks underneath. What I do know:

- It's lighter than a 531DB frame - only 4lb 2oz for the bare 23" frame
- It takes a 26.4mm seatpost so the seat tube is probably double- rather than single-butted. Accles and Pollock Kromo tubing?
- Fork was originally chromed
- Rear brake bridge is quite distinctive, with a big hexagonal boss
- Frame number is 83/595 or 831595. I think it's the former, as 83 also appears separately above the main number on the BB shell and the fork only carries the 595. Johnny Berry frames used a similar numbering format but 1983 is not a likely year of production! Could be March (194)8? I doubt it's a very small builder due to the complexity of the number
- Ekla lugs
- There is a lamp boss on the RH fork blade, which tends to put it in the 1940s rather than 1950s
- It's built to a moderate standard; the mitreing is very well done inside the BB but the tubes aren't all sealed and those pointy fork-ends are stamped, not forged.

20170427_161511 by rogerzilla, on Flickr

20170427_161408 by rogerzilla, on Flickr

20170427_161522 by rogerzilla, on Flickr

20170427_161456 by rogerzilla, on Flickr

20170427_161544 by rogerzilla, on Flickr

20170427_161554 by rogerzilla, on Flickr

20170427_161443 by rogerzilla, on Flickr

Thanks for your time!

 

[Cycleops]

Really not an expert on frames of this vintage but the braze on shifter boss might help to date it. I don't think they were doing this in 1949 but I may be wrong. Is there another on the other side?
I'm sure someone will be along soon who can give you a better appraisal.

 

[rogerzilla]

Ah yes....only the RH shifter boss is original. We know the previous, previous owner had the LH one added.

 

[midlife]

I guess the forks are threaded and it's not a head clip arrangement?

Shaun

 

[rogerzilla]

Yes, normal ISO threaded.

Hilary Stone is selling a light blue Ellis-Briggs which is rather similar - same rear ends and may be the same brake bridge, but an E-B should have a 4 digit number at the edge of the BB shell and would almost certainly be 531, which this isn't.

http://www.hilarystone.com/frameset9.html

There is an outside chance that the stamping is from a respray/modification and there are more numbers under the powdercoat.

 

[Sharky]

I wonder if those rear ends were replacements for original track ends? The rear ends look as if they have been cut?
It may have been a conversion from a single/fixed to a gears m/c?

 

[biggs682]

@rogerzilla did the seller have any of the other parts of it ?

as i would presume it originally had the old 26" wheels

or any pictures of it through the years

 

[classic33]

Bottom bracket is showing two numbers, 4 8? on the left, 2, under the 8(of 83) 8 7 to the right.

 

[rogerzilla]

@rogerzilla did the seller have any of the other parts of it ?

as i would presume it originally had the old 26" wheels

or any pictures of it through the years

I only have photos of it built up with modern components in its powdercoated state, sorry.

 

[rogerzilla]

Bottom bracket is showing two numbers, 4 8? on the left, 2, under the 8(of 83) 8 7 to the right.

Oh yes...I'll have to clean off a bit more rust. Maybe the deeply indented numbers were put there by the refinishers - it's not unheard of, just to be able to match f&f after painting.

 

[rogerzilla]

Sadly, there is no evidence of more numbers on the BB. The seller was convinced it was made in Birmingham from what he was told by its previous owner (a retired LBS proprietor, who presumably knew his stuff). Does anyone know the make of those pointy rear fork-ends? I've only seen them on an Ellis-Briggs but they're from Yorkshire.

 

[Cycleops]

A real mystery. Good luck with solving it.

 

[rogerzilla]

It's looking like an Ernie Clements (close enough to Birmingham) since he used his own rear fork-ends and these are just that type - the Ekla lugs also match. Might be a Clees model, looking at the 1949 catalogue. Haven't found the short frame number on the LH rear fork end but it could be under the powdercoat or wiped out by previous blasting.

I don't think the Ellis-Briggs I was comparing it to is actually an Ellis-Briggs...it was probably just resprayed by them and they added their own decals. It's probably a Clements too.

 

[biggs682]

@rogerzilla sounds like yor detective skills are getting close

 

[classic33]

Only two of those numbers on the bottom bracket have been struck using the same set of dies. The "8"(which is upside down) and the last "5". The rest don't match.