Hills vs apps giving cat hill climbs!

[CAESAR AVGVSTVS]

Yesterday I mapped out a short ride for midweek use (36 miles). I know one hill very well, it’s just over a mile long and goes up to 12%. Sure I get tired but a nice downhill to recover. However, me being adventurous or an idiot I put a second hill into the ride, slightly shorter and my garmin said it was classed as cat 4 (easy).
I turned left onto the new hill I’ve never been up before, the first thing I noticed was the sign with 28% on it 🤬. I was in the highest gear I had and even that was not enough. I was rapidly struggling to get that oxygen into my lungs. I stopped half way up for around a minute to get my breath back. Then it was all the way to the top and again struggling to breath 🤣
Doing some research it seams distance defines what cat a hill is. So when mapping out a ride, take Garmins cat hills with a pinch of salt 😂

 

[Dogtrousers]

Just out of interest how do you get a category fora hill from a Garmin. I've got a very fancy Garmin (1040) but it's not a feature I'm familiar with. It's probably in there somewhere, I've just not found it yet.

 

[CAESAR AVGVSTVS]

Just out of interest how do you get a category fora hill from a Garmin. I've got a very fancy Garmin (1040) but it's not a feature I'm familiar with. It's probably in there somewhere, I've just not found it yet.

Use your Garmin app, click on courses and load up a course.
You will see the little hills on the map. Click the hill in question and it will open up to tell you all you would like to know 👍

 

[CAESAR AVGVSTVS]

Use your Garmin app, click on courses and load up a course.
You will see the little hills on the map. Click the hill in question and it will open up to tell you all you would like to know 👍

 

[Dogtrousers]

That explains why I haven't come across it. I don't use Connect for route planning so I never (or rarely) see courses in the app.

Thanks

 

[Dogtrousers]

I put a second hill into the ride, slightly shorter and my garmin said it was classed as cat 4 (easy).
I turned left onto the new hill I’ve never been up before, the first thing I noticed was the sign with 28% on it

I had a little play with it and looked at a couple of my routes. I don't think Cat 4 necessarily means "easy". It just means that it's not very big overall in the grand scheme of things. It is probably trying to align itself with the categorisation that hills get in pro races (but I think that can be a bit subjective, and the race organisers have something of a free hand in that)

Ditchling Beacon and Kidd's Hill, both notable climbs in SE England with roughly 100m gain in a bit over 1km are both Cat 4, as is the stupidly steep Succomb's Hill in Warlingham. Compared with real mountains they are mere pimples, but they aren't exactly "easy".

I think you need a decent amount of elevation gain to get categorised further. That calls for proper mountains. I'd guess that there are not all that many climbs in the UK that would be rated over 3 and only a smattering - probably mostly in Scotland - that would be 1.

Some apps and things use the FIETS rating. I've never really looked at that but it may be more instructive https://epictrain.me/2018/08/22/fiets-what/

Edit.

Here is Garmin's algorithm https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/web...UID-913F9C1F-7348-4BEB-8382-6699DB1E3DE3.html

Climb categories are determined by climb score, which is calculated using the grade multiplied by the length of the climb. A climb must have a length of at least 500 meters and an average grade of at least 3 percent to be considered a climb.​

Hang on a minute. Grade multiplied by length? That's just total ascent. Add a couple of zeros if you've expressed grade as a percentage.

So a Garmin Category 4 climb is just a climb which is between 80 and 160m of ascent, with the proviso that it has an overall grade of >= 3%

 

[Alex321]

I would guess that it is actually taking the category definitions from Strava, or using very similar definitions.

And it is defined by a combination of steepness and distance.

I know of cat3 climbs (strava) which I find easier than some of the cat4 climbs round here, or even some which aren't categorised at all. Categorised as cat3 because although only averaging 4-5% and never going above about 7%, they go on for about 3 miles at that 4-5% average. While a cat4 may hit a maximum of close to 20%, and average 12%, but only goes on for 3/4 of a mile.

This is a cat3 https://www.strava.com/segments/6697363
While this is only cat4 https://www.strava.com/segments/18070429

 

[Ian H]

I prefer any hill I meet to be a pleasant surprise. Mind you, there are plenty of them here in Devon.

 

[Dogtrousers]

I would guess that it is actually taking the category definitions from Strava, or using very similar definitions.

While you were posting I actually found the definition (edited into my post above).

TBH I find these ratings a bit pointless - even if the algorithms are diverting. There are so many dimensions to what makes a climb hard or otherwise. Max gradient, road surface, bends, traffic and so on.

 

[All uphill]

I prefer any hill I meet to be a pleasant surprise. Mind you, there are plenty of them here in Devon.

And have you noticed that for every descent there are three ascents?

 

[Alex321]

While you were posting I actually found the definition (edited into my post above).

TBH I find these ratings a bit pointless - even if the algorithms are diverting. There are so many dimensions to what makes a climb hard or otherwise. Max gradient, road surface, bends, traffic and so on.

Yes. I think that is part of what I was getting at saying that cat 3 is easier (to me) than some of the cat 4s.

 

[CAESAR AVGVSTVS]

I had a little play with it and looked at a couple of my routes. I don't think Cat 4 necessarily means "easy". It just means that it's not very big overall in the grand scheme of things. It is probably trying to align itself with the categorisation that hills get in pro races (but I think that can be a bit subjective, and the race organisers have something of a free hand in that)

Ditchling Beacon and Kidd's Hill, both notable climbs in SE England with roughly 100m gain in a bit over 1km are both Cat 4, as is the stupidly steep Succomb's Hill in Warlingham. Compared with real mountains they are mere pimples, but they aren't exactly "easy".

I think you need a decent amount of elevation gain to get categorised further. That calls for proper mountains. I'd guess that there are not all that many climbs in the UK that would be rated over 3 and only a smattering - probably mostly in Scotland - that would be 1.

Some apps and things use the FIETS rating. I've never really looked at that but it may be more instructive https://epictrain.me/2018/08/22/fiets-what/

Edit.

Here is Garmin's algorithm https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/web...UID-913F9C1F-7348-4BEB-8382-6699DB1E3DE3.html

Climb categories are determined by climb score, which is calculated using the grade multiplied by the length of the climb. A climb must have a length of at least 500 meters and an average grade of at least 3 percent to be considered a climb.​

Hang on a minute. Grade multiplied by length? That's just total ascent. Add a couple of zeros if you've expressed grade as a percentage.

So a Garmin Category 4 climb is just a climb which is between 80 and 160m of ascent, with the proviso that it has an overall grade of >= 3%

Going up a hill for a couple of miles or more at 6 - 8 % is a good workout. But the hill I went up was not easy by any means. Any more than 28% and you will need a rope 🤣
Next time, before I save a ride, I will take a good look at the cross section of the hill and use that to determine my capability’s of climbing it 👍

 

[CAESAR AVGVSTVS]

Going up a hill for a couple of miles or more at 6 - 8 % is a good workout. But the hill I went up was not easy by any means. Any more than 28% and you will need a rope 🤣
Next time, before I save a ride, I will take a good look at the cross section of the hill and use that to determine my capability’s of climbing it 👍

These two are both Garmin cat 4, I’ve been up both, the first left photo is considerably easier 🤣

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Any more than 28% and you will need a rope 🤣

What’s the name of the climb / hill?

 

[Mr Celine]

Any more than 28% and you will need a rope 🤣

Good luck with this one...

The only strava cat 2 within riding distance of Celine Towers. It's quite gently really, apart from the 800 foot vertical pitch.