hit and squashed

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Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
Google Maps

The Elephant and Castle
Black Friars Bridge North Bank of River
Waterloo Bridge South Bank Imax cinema
Tower Bridge Approach North Bank/The Minories

Some of the very busy and dangerous cycling black spots in London. There are many more.

I was trying to provide a link of each to a zoom on Google Maps but haven't yet mastered how to save the zoomed page without it reverting to the default UK setting.

Probably the best organisation to lobby for cyclists in London is the LCC. They have had some successes in the past and carry some weight. Does anyone know whether they are currently campaigning to change any or all these injunctions for better cycling provision? I know they were very involved with the E&C at one point.
 
hackbike 666 said:
Your views on Blackfriars Bridge interest me as I have used this bridge for years as with Southwark Bridge.

Well, to be brief:

I can't be... I tried, but I can't...


You've seen it through various designs in your time and there have always been problems - but starting south and heading north before the current works (which look a mess):

on the approach to the bridge there are narrow lanes at the pedestrian lights. The lights bottle up vehicles and seem to elicit a sense of frustration in drivers who then race onto the bridge with little regard for cyclists dealing with an awkward line past the large amount of metalwork in the carriageway and I think granite blocks set in the gutter (all horrendous in the wet). It's also a prime spot for a left hook with traffic looking to dart down Upper Ground.

The new bike lane as it crossed the bridge was lovely and the only issue I had with it when I was commuting was that taxi drivers obviously couldn't believe that anything so wide should only be for cycles. As the bus lane ended some drivers assumed that the cycle lane must be for left turn only and I was occasionally squeezed when I didn't expect to be. I don't think that these were issues with the design just that you can't escape the company of cretins. However the width of road available at the north end of the bridge before the junction was a mixed blessing: good visibility for an informed decision on how to approach the junction when busy; or an excellent cue for people to believe that they could steam through the junction - in flowing traffic I suffered murderous left hooks as the wide radius of the left turn on to the embankment meant drivers could sweep rapidly across you and I'm sure many cyclists steamed up the inside of obviously turning vehicles.

At this point the segregated cycle lane heading on to New Bridge St made things very murky. If a cyclist were to head for it they would be taking themselves across the noses of the traffic waiting to enter the junction from embankment which often had an enterprisingly created second lane meaning that many drivers would fail to see an approaching cyclist. The cycle lane closely followed the railings on the inside which also had a news stand just inside them at the apex. Shortly afterward the railings finished just before the junction on the left. This arrangement created a blind bend just before a point where pedestrians would look to run across rather than use the crossings, emerging cars would cross the lane, cabs would pick up fares and the confused would attempt to turn down a one way street realize their mistake and jump on the brake pedal with both feet. If a cyclist sensibly avoided using the lane because they had no way of knowing if it was passable they then had to contend with the lane creating a pinch point on the main carriageway, less wary two wheelers passing on the inside (motorbikes frequently used the segregated cycle lane) and aggressive attempts to pass by following traffic.

The general layout of the junction meant that a vehicle in the inside lane leaving the bridge could reasonably be expected to turn left, go straight on or turn right. Vehicles in the outside lane could be expected to go straight on or turn right. The junction would often back up from congestion in any direction. Merge Hell. The phasing was also tight on the lights controlling this portion of the junction and amber gamblers would often cross your path.

Heading south from New Bridge Street there are narrow lanes with raised and sunken iron work with a wide radius turn to the left to facilitate left hooking. As the road rises to the bridge it bends through a shallow S-bend that drivers will straighten pinching cyclists to the kerb. The cycle lane isn't wide but has no particular horrors as it crosses the bridge within a bus lane. As the end of the bridge is approached things get hairy. The bus lane and the cycle lane end just before a bus stop and a pedestrian crossing at which point the road splits into four lanes before the traffic lights. What do you want? A bus to overtake and pull in? Heavily braking traffic to cut across from right to left? A pedestrian dash? A squeeze in a narrow lane? A right turn that has to be negotiated through three lanes of traffic? You can have it all, right here and at the same time, and on a rough, lumpy downhill patch of road.

p.s. Speed limits don't seem to apply on London's bridges other than Tower Bridge. You need a full sus to head north from Waterloo Bridge, though you can do it on a road bike heading south where you have cycle lane apart from where you need it as the road narrows as you leave the bridge.

You did ask for it.
 
Yes it is a real mess at the moment,those roadworks are awful.

Southwark Bridge is the same where one cycle lane always seems to be OOU.

Nice sum up about Blackfriars,definitely not designed for anyone.
 

summerdays

Cycling in the sun
Location
Bristol
buggi said:
Women don't think "BIG" like men do. It's men who like MEGA structures and MEGA vehicles. we don't grow up being taught about vehicles like men do, it might seem obvious to men but its because you are in that "MEGA world" and we are not taught or told about the mechanics of turning circles, especially where large vehicles are concerned so quite often its women who get squished by lorries and dumper trucks. Men learn by example of other men, women don't have this luxury and we don't usually learn until we've made a near fatal mistake.

I think there are differences between men and women. Perhaps women are less likely to filter on the right than the left and be less assertive in traffic. Certainly when I returned to cycling I didn't realise the hazard that large vehicles possed - but luckily someone posted the link to Cyclecraft which I bought.
 

Origamist

Legendary Member
Crankarm said:
The Elephant and Castle
Black Friars Bridge North Bank of River
Waterloo Bridge South Bank Imax cinema
Tower Bridge Approach North Bank/The Minories

Probably the best organisation to lobby for cyclists in London is the LCC. They have had some successes in the past and carry some weight. Does anyone know whether they are currently campaigning to change any or all these injunctions for better cycling provision? I know they were very involved with the E&C at one point.

The Mayor has written the following:

"That will mean thinking creatively about ‘barrier-busting’ on routes into the centre, helping cyclists to deal with the palio-style gyratories and one-way systems."

And yet:

"I believe that the cycle-ised city is the civilised city – but as I write those words, I want to reassure motorists and pedestrians that City Hall has not been captured by militant cyclists."

Source:
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/publications/2008/docs/way-to-go.pdf

After the plans for redeveloping the area around the Houses of Parliament and the E&C were kicked to the kerb, I'm pretty sure no one is under the illusion that City Hall is being run by Spindrift (late of this parish, and many others).

The LCC have stated some of their aims here ("permeability" is the word of the day), but they also talk about dismantling gyratories:


http://www.lcc.org.uk/documents/LCC Response to Way To Go.pdf
 

Blackandblue

New Member
Location
London
Benborp,

Those are extremely accurate summaries of the risks facing cyclists (and indeed other road users) at E&C and Blackfriars Bridge.

I use both regularly and rarely have any issues at either of them but it is only now that I realise how much I must have been thinking about and anticipating the inherent risks at each location.

That said, my approach to E&C in the morning is from Newington Butts exiting into London Road. Although not straightforward, this is probably one of the least risky ways to cross the junction. In the evening, I tackle it in reverse. This is a little more demanding.

Oddly, I have had more issues on Blackfriars Bridge. Mostly from aggressive bus drivers and taxi drivers who, like you suggest, seem to take objection to the amount of space afforded to cyclists on the northern carriageway enabling them to make much swifter progress over the bridge than they are able. I have been brushed by buses and taxis along there too many times. Similarly, the mayhem you summarise at the bottom of the south carriageway is very accurate. Excascerbated by the left filter at the lights which some motorists accelerate towards from the right hand lane swerving sharply to get round the stationary traffic queuing to go straight on or right.

Clearly there are measures that could be deployed in road layout to make things safer for all road users. At such locations it seems to me that traffic should be slowed down. Fewer and narrower lanes with tighter bends may help but I suspect it would be difficult to get backing for any road measures that slowed traffic down in London.

However, most of the risks arise from poor behaviour on the roads. Some of this is down to ignorance; and better training would help. But a lot is down to impatience, aggression and arrogance. There isn't a lot you can do to stop that. Particularly in South London.
 

Wigsie

Nincompoop
Location
Kent
Blackandblue said:
Clearly there are measures that could be deployed in road layout to make things safer for all road users. At such locations it seems to me that traffic should be slowed down. Fewer and narrower lanes with tighter bends may help but I suspect it would be difficult to get backing for any road measures that slowed traffic down in London.

I think this is true of many roads/junctions across the UK (not just affecting cyclists), maybe I have it wrong or am being overly cycnical, but surely to the local authority/government it is business. They will have some sort of an equation that estimates costs of improvements, number of different road users affected, cost to them, cost of disruptions and then look at the cost of the bad publicity and possible liability when a cyclist/pedestrian dies. If the numbers are right something will happen and improvements are made, if not then things remain as they are?
 

Arch

Married to Night Train
Location
Salford, UK
Brains said:
Put it this way, I know two cyclists that have been killed, both were female, both were very experienced, both were hit by left turning lorries.

Therefore from my point of view, if as a cyclist you are going to get hit, it is far more likely you will be a woman and it will be a left turning lorry.

There have been a couple of far more scientific studies that have come to similar conclusions.

Ok, maybe so. Perhaps I'm just thinking of myself - I've driven more large vehicles than a lot of the men I know, so I'm perhaps an odd one out.
 
OP
OP
Jake

Jake

New Member
I dont think blackfriers is too bad, and people are taking notice or at least using a bit of common. Today, BIG postoffice articulated lorry at the lights, the lady in front of me, i thought was going to cycle up along side it along the designated cycle lane, but no! she waited behind it. she looked around to see if i was going to go and just smiled and waved my head in a *feck no* way.
 

allen-uk

New Member
Location
London.
The horrifying account that the paramedic gave (see Louise's message 26 on p3), includes this link about female cyclists being at higher risk:

http://road.cc/content/news/3492-second-female-cyclist-24-hours-killed-collision-hgv-london

from which article this is a quote:

Without more research, the reasons women are more at risk can only be speculated upon but include theories that men are more aggressive in their riding style and therefore less likely to get trapped on the blind side of an HGV in slow-moving traffic.

unquote.


Which is probably true and becoming aggessive is one, but not the only answer. Becoming even more defensive is another - read the road well, and if a potentially dangerous situation is going to arise, get out of it, not into it. Even as I'm typing I am imagining situations where getting out of it is going to be difficult, but I just don't think that increasing levels of aggression can be a good thing on our already aggressive streets.


A.
 
I think, especially in London, the amount of traffic has a part to play. I can never get my head around why so many people drive in London, especially right in the centre. People call for the banning of HGVs during rush hour, but I don't agree with that. I think they should ban all cars from central London. Take the cars away and there would be more than enough room for the buses and HGVs.
 

rog

New Member
Location
London
I travel over BF bridge twice a day and it is usually the trickiest part of my commute as traffic is first squeezed together and then required to negotiate numerous obstacles (bus stops, ped crossings) and complex junctions. This results in lots of fast moving traffic and rapid lane changing.

Not ashamed to say it was also the site of my last spill when the combination of impatient taxi, rain and manhole cover resulted in me painfully hitting the deck (and buying a helmet cam…:sad:)

However, the situation has got even worse as road works have appeared on the north side which have impacted the effectiveness of the cycle facilities.

See for yourself..this is travelling north

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxSDRrMvomk


This is travelling south

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-KL0wJKZtE
 
Southwark and Blackfriars Bridges are a shambles.

I have to cross right over the North Side of both bridges.Same with London Bridge as well.
 

orbiter

Well-Known Member
Location
Hertfordshire
Crankarm said:
Ultimately the only way to prevent these tragedies happening in urban areas is to have separate cycle paths totally from road traffic as in parts of France, Holland and Germany.
...which lead to more collisions at side roads. :?: A solution I noticed in Belgium last week is to protect a vulnerable cycle lane with long raised lumps, like dashed white lines 5-6" high. These take up less road than our occasional 2-3ft wide separator (as in roq's film of Blackfriars) but appear just as effective.
 
I remember when Blackfrairs had that cycle lane between the lanes instead fof the lane and the kerb.Dangerous or what? I very rarely used it.
 
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