How defensive is your riding?

[Roadrunner78]

How defensively do you ride?

I am sick to death of drivers not giving hoot about be on my bike.. close passes, passes a few yards before roundabouts, passes just before pinch points, "hello my arm is out i want to turn off, why wont you all let me?" Etc etc the usual stuff.

I learned a bit of defensive riding from this forum. I use to ride in the gutter but now im pushing it further than primary, as in if its not safe to pass you aint getting past!

Eg, Pinch point im out in advance positioned just before center of my lane. Just before roundabouts, the same. Obviously if the driver is racing up behind me i let them go, sometimes it feels like they would drive straight through you! That kind of idea.

The end result is me arriving at my destination calm and with more of the upper hand. Each example should be read with good road sense as a push bike is no match to a car in a stand off i know. But how defensive is your riding?

Good example. Not my vid tho.

View: http://www.youtube.com/user/kmcyc#p/u/102/64Z59DzUwyA

 

[gaz]

Hmmm.. defensive riding will mean different things for different people.
I think it's best just to sometimes give caution and just let car drivers do there thing. Best to keep your self safe. But that doesn't mean don't take your position on the road. Be assertive but be aware that some people are idiots and it's best to let them get on with it than try and fight them for road position!

Origamist is doing a good set of videos on this sort of thing.

 

[Bigsharn]

Personally, unless there's a row of parked cars, a pinch point or a slower cyclist, it's very rare that I move further out than 3ft from the kerb. I take primary on the slower dual carriageways (40-50mph) because people have plenty of room to pass and very rarely use it otherwise.

 

[corshamjim]

I'm lucky that most of the drivers near where I live are patient and courteous (as am I). I do indeed take primary when needed to get positioned well in advance of pinch points and suchlike though. For me it's about removing any uncertainty from the following driver as to whether it's safe to overtake me or not.

I use a mirror, and if I don't like the look of the huge truck or tractor bearing down on me I'll pull over and let them pass safely.

Live & let live.

 

[summerdays]

The word I would hope to use about my style of riding would be a cross between assertive and lazy.... depending on mood etc!!

This week I've been spooked twice by a bad overtake by a cement lorry (not sure if it was the same one both times) on exactly the same road at the same sort of time... both times I was overtaking parked cars giving them plenty of room and it overtook too close and with on coming cars forcing it to pull in quickly, forcing me to stop by the car. I'm going to avoid that road for a day or two ... and watch out for that individual.... normally I have reasonably good lorry interactions. I did check behind both times but he wasn't there (road curves slightly) and it's a row of parked cars. (The second lorry's reg was FP08 PLX but I didn't get the name on the lorry).

 

[BentMikey]

I'm lucky that most of the drivers near where I live are patient and courteous (as am I). I do indeed take primary when needed to get positioned well in advance of pinch points and suchlike though. For me it's about removing any uncertainty from the following driver as to whether it's safe to overtake me or not.

I use a mirror, and if I don't like the look of the huge truck or tractor bearing down on me I'll pull over and let them pass safely.

Live & let live.

Yup, even in that London almost all the drivers are nice. We just encounter so many drivers on a commute that minor incidents mount up quickly.

Totally with you on letting lorries past - here's my example on video:

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua4VKKHpYEA

 

[XmisterIS]

I tend to take primary before a pinch point and also before I want to turn right. Other than that I tend to take secondary. I'm not sure if that counts as "defensive riding", but it seems to work ok!

 

[gbb]

As Gaz says, depends on your interpretation. I consider myself assertive, bordering combative, yet rarely ever use primary. Perhaps thats because the road system here is big enough for everyone (not everywhere, but in general), or perhaps its because i've developed a system that works for me...good observation prior to a potential hazard, i can usually work my way in with the traffic. It doesnt always work, but nothing is guaranteed to give 100% results.
Assertive gives you defensive. Some people would see defensive as riding in the gutter or on the path

 

[pshore]

I tend to ride in the left wheel track which riles a few drivers but for the majority, it makes them overtake past the centre line. Primary I use very sparingly, and less than recommended as it antagonises drivers in my experience and can put you in more danger.

The classic is at pinch points - the left wheel track is often enough to prevent the overtake, primary achieves the same but adds driver anger.


What is troubling me on my commute is new (unfinished) shared use cycle paths. They are less safe but I can already feel the pressure to use them. The aggressive actions of a few drivers will take away my choice to ride where it is safest.

 

[BentMikey]

I rarely get driver anger for taking primary, but then I'm doing quite a lot of signalling. For example, coming through a pinch point I'll signal and negotiate out to primary, and point out the pedestrian refuge as to why I'm out. After the refuge, I'll move left, give a thumbs up and wave them past. This sort of thing gets me loads of thank yous from drivers that are now happy to see what and why I did, and that I'm also making an effort to make their journey easier without compromising my own safety.

On those occasions where a bad/aggressive driver does get angry, they'd get angry anyway, and then you have to deal with their driving having had less of an effect on them, and with a much smaller safety margin because you're not in primary to give you enough space to the left, you haven't moved them out enough, and they will be going much faster.

 

[Ste T.]

Bigsharn,
I stand in awe of your riding primary on D.C.s where the speed limit is 40-50. My experience is that many will be doing 50-60 and so close behind the car in front that if car 1 pulls out to pass you without an indicator car 2 will be confronted with your back in the middle of his lane, right in front of him at 60. If there happens to be somebody alongside him in the outside lane at the same time, all he can do is slam on and hope for the best. The speed difference is the deciding factor for me. I will take primary on the approach to a roundabout on a D.C. to avoid a left hook as they will have slowed to a more more manageable speed 30 or less.
You are in the right, but I don't have you courage.

 

[Origamist]

Riding defensively cannot be reduced to a road positioning dichotomy (primary/secondary). For me, it's far more about hazard perception; alertness and vigilance; gleaning information from the traffic environment; processing and prioritising data; understanding where conflict arises and how best to mitigate the potential dangers; being adaptable etc.

There are numerous coping strategies, defensive tactics and techniques that we can employ: such as road positioning, signalling, visibility aids, changes of speed, frequent observation and so on. If you want to hone these skills consider training, reading up on cycle craft and garnering experience and insight on the road.

As people have discussed pinch-points, the width of the pinch point, rearward observation and knowing when to hold your ground (and when to defer) are critical. However, like most things in dynamic traffic situations, it's not an exact science:

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2gehhELFZc

 

[BentMikey]

Riding defensively cannot be reduced to a road positioning dichotomy (primary/secondary).

Well said, although I should have thought that was remarkably obvious to most cyclists, enough that most of us don't bother to point it out. Perhaps I'm mistaken...

 

[Origamist]

Well said, although I should have thought that was remarkably obvious to most cyclists, enough that most of us don't bother to point it out. Perhaps I'm mistaken...

The OP's question is a good one: "How defensive is your riding" as most of us find it easier to criticise others than evaluate our own riding. However, there's already a high quotient of posts relating to "primary and secondary" (not surprising given the OP's introductory paras) on this thread and it's a reductive assessment that detracts from so many other constructive elements of defensive riding.

Road positioning is of course important, but it tends to both swamp/polarise debate and this stymies the wider educational aspect of the discourse.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

I think the ability to ride assertively is also dependent upon physical fitness. I started trying to follow the advice in Cyclecraft about 8 months ago, and did find quite a few drivers were impatient when I was taking primary position up to pinch points, etc. On a number of occasions, I would get cut up by drivers trying to rush round me into the pinch point. Although I am still not a particularly strong cyclist, I do find that I can now accelerate quite a bit faster than I could then as well as being faster in general, and find I rarely have a problem with this now.

On the other hand, I do now find that more drivers are cutting in too early after an overtake. Presumably they can't grasp that cyclists can actually move at quite a speed, even if they do have panniers and flat handlebars. (I think this has been discussed in another thread recently.)

I agree with Gaz about taking each case individually. There is one place on my commute where I would be passed very close in secondary position even though there is plenty of room, but when I started to use primary position, drivers still tried to squeeze past between me and traffic in the next lane. I have started riding quite close to the kerb on this bit as it is at the top of a camber, without any drains or debris, and this seems to work best.

I do wonder how much of the change is due to better cycling technique generally and how much is down to my just learning the ins and outs of cycling this particular route. I suspect it may be the latter.