beanzontoast
Guru
- Location
- South of The Peaks
wafflycat said:
+1.
ISTR even 30 years ago, the advice was to ride 3 feet (about 90cm in new money) from the kerb.
how far from the kerb?!
- Thread starter adunn01
- Start date
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+1.
ISTR even 30 years ago, the advice was to ride 3 feet (about 90cm in new money) from the kerb.
wafflycat
New Member
- Location
- middle of Norfolk
beanzontoast said:
Indeed. I'm fifty - did my Cycling Proficiency Test aged 10 and even back then we were told to be about three feet from the kerb.
the reluctant cyclist
Über Member
- Location
- Birmingham
adunn01 said:
It's interesting to hear that because I am always cycling a lot nearer to the kerb than is recommended - I think you said that you would be about the distance that a third yellow line would be earlier (?) and that's about where I would be too.
I have to say that on the occaisons where I have tried to dominate my lane (especially on busy roads) I have found that I got overtaken even more closely and after the overtake cut up really badly as they pulled back in.
I note that in a lot of magnatrom's videos too the drivers (and I use that term loosely) are telling him that they did what they did because he was "in the middle of the road" - it seems to really wind them up!
What I notice is that you will always get plenty of consideration and room etc if you don't "hold anyone up" if you are "holding them up" you will get cut up!
My strategy is to just use loads and loads of little side roads to weave in and out of the main roads and get to my destination.
... although I am aware that this is a case of being bullied off the road which is sad and makes me a bit
It does depend on the road and conditions, but I mostly cycle at least 1 meter from the kerb.
This is a recent habbit I started recently, which has made my commute a lot safer.
Not only am I avoiding all the potholes and drains at the side of the road, but it also gives me a buffer zone from peds stepping out and room to move into if I get passed to closely.
But the main difference I found was that vehicles were giving me more room when overtaking. I think it's because I am far enough out that if a driver wants to pass me, then they have to alter their line to get past.
The last close call I had, I was cycling just outside double yellow lines and I had very little room for error, not helped by also being forced across a sunken drain cover.
Pull the other one, I've seen a picture of you and you're nowhere near 50
This is a recent habbit I started recently, which has made my commute a lot safer.
Not only am I avoiding all the potholes and drains at the side of the road, but it also gives me a buffer zone from peds stepping out and room to move into if I get passed to closely.
But the main difference I found was that vehicles were giving me more room when overtaking. I think it's because I am far enough out that if a driver wants to pass me, then they have to alter their line to get past.
The last close call I had, I was cycling just outside double yellow lines and I had very little room for error, not helped by also being forced across a sunken drain cover.
wafflycat said:
Pull the other one, I've seen a picture of you and you're nowhere near 50
beanzontoast
Guru
- Location
- South of The Peaks
wafflycat said:
+1 again! (51)
Hmmm... asking about distance from the kerb is asking the wrong question, surely.
According to Cyclecraft (p 85-92), the standard riding positions away from junctions are:
The primary riding position - in the centre of the leftmost moving traffic lane for the direction in which you wish to travel
and
The secondary riding position - about 1 metre (3 feet) to the left of the moving traffic lane if the road is wide, but not closer than 0.5 metre (1.5 feet) to the edge of any road
It goes on to say on p 88: "Follow the traffic, not the edge of the road - The secondary riding position is always relative to the moving traffic lane, not the road edge. Riding further left, even if there is space, will reduce your ability to be seen by other drivers and the notice they will take of you."
"Only on long stretches of road where there are no side roads, drives or other entrances and you are travelling very slowly (perhaps up a hill) should you allow yourself to ride further to the left than the secondary riding position, but always keep at least 0.5 metre (1.5 feet) from the edge. Conversely, if you are travelling quickly, keep further out."
More on Primary riding position:
"The primary riding position should be your normal riding position when you can keep up with traffic, when you need to emphasise your presence to traffic ahead, or when you need to prevent following drivers from passing you unsafely." (p. 88)
On p 90 John Franklin states that an important exception to the rules for holding the primary riding position is when there is a significantly increased risk of being hit from behind, owing to bad visibility (fog, heavy mist, fine persistent rain); caution is also needed at pub closing time. ".... At each of these times, it is prudent to keep further left and to take special care near junctions. You may also find it difficult to move to or maintain the primary riding position along narrow main roads where traffic is fast and continuous. Your only option here is to ride as best you can and reduce speed at hazards if you cannot move out. At all times, make sure you have good control of your bike by grasping the handlebar firmly, but you may get more clearance from traffic if you do not steer too straight a course." (p 91).
According to Cyclecraft (p 85-92), the standard riding positions away from junctions are:
The primary riding position - in the centre of the leftmost moving traffic lane for the direction in which you wish to travel
and
The secondary riding position - about 1 metre (3 feet) to the left of the moving traffic lane if the road is wide, but not closer than 0.5 metre (1.5 feet) to the edge of any road
It goes on to say on p 88: "Follow the traffic, not the edge of the road - The secondary riding position is always relative to the moving traffic lane, not the road edge. Riding further left, even if there is space, will reduce your ability to be seen by other drivers and the notice they will take of you."
"Only on long stretches of road where there are no side roads, drives or other entrances and you are travelling very slowly (perhaps up a hill) should you allow yourself to ride further to the left than the secondary riding position, but always keep at least 0.5 metre (1.5 feet) from the edge. Conversely, if you are travelling quickly, keep further out."
More on Primary riding position:
"The primary riding position should be your normal riding position when you can keep up with traffic, when you need to emphasise your presence to traffic ahead, or when you need to prevent following drivers from passing you unsafely." (p. 88)
On p 90 John Franklin states that an important exception to the rules for holding the primary riding position is when there is a significantly increased risk of being hit from behind, owing to bad visibility (fog, heavy mist, fine persistent rain); caution is also needed at pub closing time. ".... At each of these times, it is prudent to keep further left and to take special care near junctions. You may also find it difficult to move to or maintain the primary riding position along narrow main roads where traffic is fast and continuous. Your only option here is to ride as best you can and reduce speed at hazards if you cannot move out. At all times, make sure you have good control of your bike by grasping the handlebar firmly, but you may get more clearance from traffic if you do not steer too straight a course." (p 91).
I tend to ride at least as far out as the length of my arm (and I have long arms like a gibbon) - i.e. far out enough that I wouldn't bash a pedestrian on the kerb if I were signalling to turn left. I don't feel that I get overtaken closely from doing it, and as others have said, it gives you a bit of an escape route if you are passed a bit close.
I am pretty bad at being far enough into the lane if the road's wide though, I do find I don't follow Franklin's advice that well
I am pretty bad at being far enough into the lane if the road's wide though, I do find I don't follow Franklin's advice that well
Eat MY Dust
New Member
- Location
- Where ever I lay my hat (helmet)
For me it depends on my speed. If I'm going the same speed as the cars I'll sit in the middle of the road, when cornering I can sometimes be almost hitting the middle white lines ( see here
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2RyLqWiikc
). It's very rarely anybody takes offence at this. Anything below 20 mph I'm usually in a secondary position.
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2RyLqWiikc
). It's very rarely anybody takes offence at this. Anything below 20 mph I'm usually in a secondary position.
Arch
Married to Night Train
- Location
- Salford, UK
I reckon I'm normally between half a metre and a metre out.
Landslide's idea of a decent stride away from the kerb is a very good one, I think
Landslide's idea of a decent stride away from the kerb is a very good one, I think
the reluctant cyclist said:It's interesting to hear that because I am always cycling a lot nearer to the kerb than is recommended - I think you said that you would be about the distance that a third yellow line would be earlier (?) and that's about where I would be too.
I have to say that on the occaisons where I have tried to dominate my lane (especially on busy roads) I have found that I got overtaken even more closely and after the overtake cut up really badly as they pulled back in.
I note that in a lot of magnatrom's videos too the drivers (and I use that term loosely) are telling him that they did what they did because he was "in the middle of the road" - it seems to really wind them up!
What I notice is that you will always get plenty of consideration and room etc if you don't "hold anyone up" if you are "holding them up" you will get cut up!
My strategy is to just use loads and loads of little side roads to weave in and out of the main roads and get to my destination.
... although I am aware that this is a case of being bullied off the road which is sad and makes me a bit
That sounds to me like you're not taking a strong enough position when "trying to dominate". If you need to be in primary for safety reasons get right out in the middle of the lane so there's no possibility of close overtakes.
There should be no thought of coming off the road you're on unless you feel particularly unsafe on that road. I get the feeling from your post that you might be taking unnecessarily weak road positions and suffering the consequences, although that may be unfair based on one post!
gbb
Squire
- Location
- Peterborough
the reluctant cyclist said:It's interesting to hear that because I am always cycling a lot nearer to the kerb than is recommended - I think you said that you would be about the distance that a third yellow line would be earlier (?) and that's about where I would be too.
I have to say that on the occaisons where I have tried to dominate my lane (especially on busy roads) I have found that I got overtaken even more closely and after the overtake cut up really badly as they pulled back in.
I note that in a lot of magnatrom's videos too the drivers (and I use that term loosely) are telling him that they did what they did because he was "in the middle of the road" - it seems to really wind them up!
What I notice is that you will always get plenty of consideration and room etc if you don't "hold anyone up" if you are "holding them up" you will get cut up!
My strategy is to just use loads and loads of little side roads to weave in and out of the main roads and get to my destination.
... although I am aware that this is a case of being bullied off the road which is sad and makes me a bit
I've had the same too....and its not about being unable to dominate the road.
We all know when and how to use primary to best effect. The trouble is, car drivers often dont. They have no concept of why you're there, you're just in the way.
Also, early in trying to perfect your cyclecraft, your experiences cloud your judgement of whats effective and best. If you had a bad experience early, its difficult to put that to the back of your mind.
I've had similar experiences to Reluctant Cyclists, where when assuming the correct position, has actually put me in FAR greater danger, because of the selfish actions of occasional motorists. I can give examples, but it'd go on a bit. Suffice to say, you will meet the occasional motorist who's going through whatever the risk to you.
Primary will aid you, but its not a panacea...and can on occasions leave you far more exposed. Thats why i use it EXTREMELY carefully and as rarely as possible.
Ive also heard posters are using primary in the snow and ice. Last thing i'd do personally. A car that skids behind you will have far less chance of getting round you if you're in primary.
Lion
New Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
I travel a metre away too (unless a bus / taxi is behind, but I'll not go into my personal vendetta's lol) ,I was alway tought this when learning to drive, so its just kinda stuck with me when cycling too, i find it helps to keep this distace on busy roads too, otherwise drivers seem to force me off the road!
Arch
Married to Night Train
- Location
- Salford, UK
gbb said:
If a car is skidding, it's possibly as likely to take you out if you're in the gutter, or on the pavement, I'd have thought.
I ride further out in snow and ice to avoid the built up of snow on the edge of the road, which might be hiding all sorts of hazards, or the bit of ice the cars haven't ground away.
