how far from the kerb?!

[Neddy]

After being forced to stay behind me as I rode in primary through a set of traffic lights and the next two roundabouts, WVM wound his window down and shouted
"It's only a bike you know, not a Ferrari!"

I think he was referring to the width I was taking, rather than my phenomenal acceleration

 

[gbb]

If a car is skidding, it's possibly as likely to take you out if you're in the gutter, or on the pavement, I'd have thought.

I ride further out in snow and ice to avoid the built up of snow on the edge of the road, which might be hiding all sorts of hazards, or the bit of ice the cars haven't ground away.

This is also true...the myriad of possible outcomes
But, it also occurs to me that actually, you leave yourself more vulnerable (in primary, in skiddy conditions) to skidding oncoming cars too.

I agree with riding further out in snow etc...its a neccessity.

Also Lurkers post contained an interesting paragraph...
'On p 90 John Franklin states that an important exception to the rules for holding the primary riding position is when there is a significantly increased risk of being hit from behind'
Although skiddy conditions are'nt mentioned...i'da thought that was classic time where you are at increased risk of being hit from behind.

The irony is, in my experience, a car driver in difficulties will often rather come close to a cyclist than a brick wall, car or similar solid object

 

[Arch]

This is also true...the myriad of possible outcomes
But, it also occurs to me that actually, you leave yourself more vulnerable (in primary, in skiddy conditions) to skidding oncoming cars too.

I think, basically, if conditions are such that cars are likely to be skidding, you just have to decide whether you take the risk of being out at all! There comes a time when maybe you just abandon 'best practice' and rely on your spidey sense.

 

[gbb]

One important point missed in this discussion is the local road itself...that can dictate whether you ride 1 metre out or the minimum recommended 1/2 metre.
There are roads in my locality that lend themselves excellently to being 1 metre out...on those roads, you do so.
But, i ride many B roads, where effectively 1 metre out is approaching primary.

Another factor not brought up, is the cyclists ability to maintain a good line. If you're confident and in control, the minimum is again, adequate, but for a novice or inexperienced cyclist...1 metre is probably more prudent. And ironically, that will bring you closer to the cars that are probably scared of.

 

[Lurker]

....Another factor not brought up, is the cyclists ability to maintain a good line. If you're confident and in control, the minimum is again, adequate, but for a novice or inexperienced cyclist...1 metre is probably more prudent. And ironically, that will bring you closer to the cars that are probably scared of.

Not according to Cyclecraft, it won't!

".... At all times, make sure you have good control of your bike by grasping the handlebar firmly, but you may get more clearance from traffic if you do not steer too straight a course." (p 91).

He doesn't use the term 'tactical wobble' but that would I think come under John Franklin's definition of 'not steering too straight a course'.

Sometimes I do a kind of 'swooping arc' style of cycling, which would also fall into this category. Not wobbling, but definitely not steering a dead straight course. The end result's the same; to drivers approaching from behind, the cyclist's movement isn't 100% predictable, which encourages them to overtake giving me a wide berth, and may also discourage some of the more obviously dangerous attempted overtakes....

 

[gbb]

Not according to Cyclecraft, it won't!

".... At all times, make sure you have good control of your bike by grasping the handlebar firmly, but you may get more clearance from traffic if you do not steer too straight a course." (p 91).

He doesn't use the term 'tactical wobble' but that would I think come under John Franklin's definition of 'not steering too straight a course'.

Sometimes I do a kind of 'swooping arc' style of cycling, which would also fall into this category. Not wobbling, but definitely not steering a dead straight course. The end result's the same; to drivers approaching from behind, the cyclist's movement isn't 100% predictable, which encourages them to overtake giving me a wide berth, and may also discourage some of the more obviously dangerous attempted overtakes....

May being the operative word

I think we all find a way that works for us...and again, your point is true sometimes.

The important point to put over, as i said, is there is no cure all. What 'worries' me is that less experienced cyclists may come away with the idea that primary will protect you, that you must stay 1 metre from the kerb etc etc.
Theres a thousand permutations of circumstances out there, one rule will not work all the time.
Theres a time to be in primary, 1 metre from the kerb, 1/2 metre from the kerb, etc etc. Theres no definitive answer, you find out as you go and it changes every minute. One day it'll work...another it wont. Thats because you cannot absolutley control someone in a car. You can do so much, quite rightly, but if you come across a moron...nothing you do will change his behaviour....and we all come across a moron once in a while

 

[Lurker]

May being the operative word

I think we all find a way that works for us...and again, your point is true sometimes.

The important point to put over, as i said, is there is no cure all. What 'worries' me is that less experienced cyclists may come away with the idea that primary will protect you, that you must stay 1 metre from the kerb etc etc.
Theres a thousand permutations of circumstances out there, one rule will not work all the time.
Theres a time to be in primary, 1 metre from the kerb, 1/2 metre from the kerb, etc etc. Theres no definitive answer, you find out as you go and it changes every minute. One day it'll work...another it wont. Thats because you cannot absolutley control someone in a car. You can do so much, quite rightly, but if you come across a moron...nothing you do will change his behaviour....and we all come across a moron once in a while

I don't think we disagree at all. Here's what John Franklin says about the standard riding positions:-
"To understand positioning, you must understand the concept of a moving traffic lane - that part of the carriageway along which through traffic is moving *at the present time*. It is a dynamic concept, changing continually with place and traffic conditions. A moving traffic lane meanders past parked vehicles and other obstructions, and does not necessarily coincide with any markings on the surface...." (Cyclecraft, p 87)

Also, as you say, there is no magic solution. Cyclecraft is very clear about this in that JF talks about 'maximising' safety; we can't be 100% 'safe' (even in a car) but there are things we can do to improve our safety. The key message to get across in thinking about a cyclist's position on a road is that what may seem safe to a novice cyclist - keeping out of the way of traffic - although understandable, is more likely to increase danger.

 

[HLaB]

Ive also heard posters are using primary in the snow and ice. Last thing i'd do personally. A car that skids behind you will have far less chance of getting round you if you're in primary.

The main reason I'm in a stronger (more primary) position when its icy is that cycling to close to the gutter is more likely to be slippery and I don't want to slide out in front of a car or into a car immediately to my right . The chances of that are more than a car loosing control on properly gritted roads.

 

[magnatom]

Feel free to question me directly about my blog addun01. What's with the cloak and daggers?



In answer, looking at my blog and in the same line I also say 'depending on the road'. So sometimes closer than 1m, sometimes further than 1m but never closer than 50cm.

Out of interest, what is the typical width of a road lane? i.e what percentage of a road does a cyclist take up when sitting at 1m?

 

[gbb]

Feel free to question me directly about my blog addun01. What's with the cloak and daggers?



In answer, looking at my blog and in the same line I also say 'depending on the road'. So sometimes closer than 1m, sometimes further than 1m but never closer than 50cm.

Out of interest, what is the typical width of a road lane? i.e what percentage of a road does a cyclist take up when sitting at 1m?[/QUOTE]
There is no typical width Magnatom...we all wish
Some roads i use, the lane is not much wider than a car....some urban roads are lovely and wide. It changes all the time.
You've quite rightly stated 'sometimes 1 metre, soemetimes 50cm, dependng on the road'
Thats covers my point...its not right to say (as some have infered) that 50cm is too close. It depends entirely on local conditions.

 

[adunn01]

Feel free to question me directly about my blog addun01. What's with the cloak and daggers?

if i only wanted your opinion i'd have asked you directly, was looking for a bit of debate.

cloak and dagger...you're such a drama queen!

 

[Origamist]

Get a room or have a scrap - make your minds up...

 

[adunn01]

Get a room or have a scrap - make your minds up...

gies a kiss

 

[HJ]

as an update, I tried that whole 1m from the kerb thing to do and it felt ridiculously wide. It was pretty much an encouragement to close over-takers.

I've now convinced myself that the original blogger who I read saying 1m was just over-estimating his distance from the kerb, there's no way that far out is necessary or safer.

It is far safer the gutter hugging, a meter out is about right, any less and if there is an obstruction (a pot hole, drain grate, glass etc) and you have no choice but to swerve into the traffic which don't have noticed that you are there because you are gutter hugging. Just remember you just as much right to use the road as any driver has.