How often do you use your bell?

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Pretty much yes, with the backing of Presumed Liability, which the UK, uniquely in Europe, doesn't have. I'm especially careful on my large heave Bakfiets.

Of course, it works for me as well. When I learned to drive I was very clearly told I was basically responsible for the safety of all vulnerable road users. My instructor would watch as we approached a pedestrian crossing and I had to show I'd checked no-one was about to cross. There was even one by a blind junction, and I had to drive slowly until I could see no pedestrians were coming from around the corner. As my driving instructor said "If you're driving on and Autobahn and a cyclist falls out of a clear sky, and you hit them, it's your fault." It's one reason I almost never have a close pass.

That is how we should all think

There is always the possibility that a little old lady has collapsed just round the corner and landed up in the middle of the road

doesn't matter whether you are running, on a bike, on a bike, in a car , in a lorry or driving a tank - the same applies
 

Drago

Legendary Member
Pretty much yes, with the backing of Presumed Liability, which the UK, uniquely in Europe, doesn't have.

And it seems not matter that the UK does not have it. In not one single European jurisdiction has there been a quantifiable reduction in vulnerable road user casualty numbers as a consequence of PL.

The theory it sounds great, but in practice it often penalises the blameless while not actually making the roads any safer, so why would the UK bother?

We have enough bother over here with fake-cash-for-crash pedestrian and cyclist scammers, so why would the UK want to hand them a meal ticket with no tangible benefit for law abiding road users of any category?
 
And it seems not matter that the UK does not have it. In not one single European jurisdiction has there been a quantifiable reduction in vulnerable road user casualty numbers as a consequence of PL.

The theory it sounds great, but in practice it often penalises the blameless while not actually making the roads any safer, so why would the UK bother?

We have enough bother over here with fake-cash-for-crash pedestrian and cyclist scammers, so why would the UK want to hand them a meal ticket with no tangible benefit for law abiding road users of any category?

I've heard that claim before, but I'm not sure how you measure it: I doubt it would change driver behaviour overnight, but as new drivers are taught and learn to drive in the new legal structure, it alters behaviour over the long term. As I said above, it's a very long time since a driver passed uncomfortably close to me while cycling. It's normal for drivers to leave a 2m gap, which makes a massive difference in perceived safety, and makes "punishment passes" for riding in the primary position rare. Last time I was in York on a bike I had more close passes in a week than in the previous 2 years. It also makes "shared space" streets much safer: drivers still tend to assume you'll move out of the way, but they do at least wait for you to do so. Equally, my impression is that drivers are much more aware of pedestrian crossings.

Rules for truck/bus drivers are much stricter, and they are generally much more aware of cyclists than in the UK.

I haven't heard of cash for crash scams happening here. It may be harder to pull here, because of our different legal code and a couple of layers of insurance that don't exist in the UK. Also, the police have to be called for even smallish accidents, especially involving a pedestrian, otherwise it's a hit & run.

I don't see it penalising vulnerable users here: it gives us an extra (albeit rather thin) layer of protection.

What it doesn't do, is protect me if I'm being stupid: if I run across a busy road and a car hits me, I'll be considered at fault. If a child runs into the road, then the driver can argue that the legal guardian is responsible for the child, as happened when a car hit my son. The driver failed, specifically because it was a shared space street where he should have been driving at 7km/h (4mph), (he was way over), my wife had two kids and was distracted by the other child, and most importantly the driver thought that because we were immigrants he could get away with driving off, The lawyers had a field day with that. If the collision had taken place on a normal road, then his argument would have been much stronger; it's not a black and white rule.
 

Gillstay

Veteran
I found in Belgium and France it was much nicer to move about on foot and on the bike. Also I was allowed to be more careful with out idiots tooting because I have slowed to comply with the law. I can see many benefits just having lived it for a week.
 
I did an emergency stop for real during one of my driving lessons when kid on a bike shot out in front of me. Fortunately I was on the brake as quick as the instructor was.

I knew someone who had to do it for real on their actual test

They had just started when a kid ran out JUST in front of the car!!

Once it was clear that all was OK the examiner said
"Are you OK??"
when he said yes he said
"Well I guess that covers emergency stops pretty well!"

He passed
 

simongt

Guru
Location
Norwich
There is always the possibility that a little old lady has collapsed just round the corner and landed up in the middle of the road
Precisely. As I alluded to a while back, when I was walking the railway path in Miller's Dale there were a lot of other walkers about of varying age & ability. Two cyclists came tearing through ringing their bells in an urgent 'get out of our way' implication and proceeded to weave in and out of the walkers at a totally unsafe speed for the circumstances.
It would have only taken one person to change direction or fall to create an unpleasant situation. :whistle:
 
Precisely. As I alluded to a while back, when I was walking the railway path in Miller's Dale there were a lot of other walkers about of varying age & ability. Two cyclists came tearing through ringing their bells in an urgent 'get out of our way' implication and proceeded to weave in and out of the walkers at a totally unsafe speed for the circumstances.
It would have only taken one person to change direction or fall to create an unpleasant situation. :whistle:

People like that are what gives other cyclists a bad name

people remember them
and forget the ones that slowed down and rang their bell and said Thank You as they passed

Same with BMW driver and all that
 
People like that are what gives other cyclists a bad name

people remember them
and forget the ones that slowed down and rang their bell and said Thank You as they passed

Same with BMW driver and all that

I'm sure that must be very annoying for all three courteous BMW Drivers in the UK.
 
I'm sure that must be very annoying for all three courteous BMW Drivers in the UK.

I saw an article ones that said that BMW driver were an unusual group

Most of them were very good drivers and drove very well
but there was a larger than normal contingent that were reckless and dangerous


not sure who wrote that but one might suspect what type of car he drove (of course it was a He!!)
 
I saw an article ones that said that BMW driver were an unusual group

Most of them were very good drivers and drove very well
but there was a larger than normal contingent that were reckless and dangerous


not sure who wrote that but one might suspect what type of car he drove (of course it was a He!!)

TO be fair even in Stuttgart Mercedes drivers have the same reputation. (Also Audi, BMW, Porsche... a pattern develops...)
 

presta

Legendary Member
I knew someone who had to do it for real on their actual test

They had just started when a kid ran out JUST in front of the car!!

Once it was clear that all was OK the examiner said
"Are you OK??"
when he said yes he said
"Well I guess that covers emergency stops pretty well!"

He passed
When i did my test, the examiner ended up all over the dashboard because he underestimated how quickly i could stop.
Precisely. As I alluded to a while back, when I was walking the railway path in Miller's Dale there were a lot of other walkers about of varying age & ability. Two cyclists came tearing through ringing their bells in an urgent 'get out of our way' implication and proceeded to weave in and out of the walkers at a totally unsafe speed for the circumstances.
It would have only taken one person to change direction or fall to create an unpleasant situation. :whistle:
Walking in the Goyt valley, a pair of MTBs came racing downhill from behind, and I didnt know they were there until the almost brushed my shoulder.
TO be fair even in Stuttgart Mercedes drivers have the same reputation. (Also Audi, BMW, Porsche... a pattern develops...)
Have you seen this?


View: https://youtu.be/bJ8Kq1wucsk?si=dNcwauH60GDziNYO&t=489
 
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