Hydrogen power

[biggs682]

So in the last couple of days BMW have announced how they hope to have hydrogen cars ready for sale in 2025

https://www.dhakatribune.com/business/338624/bmw-bids-farewell-to-electric-cars-set-to-launch

https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/topics/discover/concept-cars/bmw-ix5-hydrogen-overview.html

And then Honda and GM announced this https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/25/gm-honda-begin-us-fuel-cell-production.html

We will have to see what happens

 

[Drago]

Hydrogen is an unwanted by product of most processes involving the refining of crude oil. Even when no one is burning petrol they'll still be processing vast amounts to make plastics (about half of oil production is already used for that purpose) so there's a source of H going to waste.

It's misleading when the media, usually the Guardian in their finest holier than though tone, talk disparagingly about 'brown' hydrogen. The stuff for use in vehicles will be created as a by product of industrial processes, no one is burning fuel specifically to make the stuff in the simply gargantuan industrial quantities required for transport.

Until now there hasn't been a market for it and its harmlessly burned off. That is now starting to change, and the likes of Ineos, who process a lot of oil into chemicals and thus burn off a lot of hydrogen, are trying to find a way to economically capture this now in-demand by product. I'm sure they'll figure it out one day and when they do...

A lot of pieces need to fall into place to make this viable, but who knows? Only 20 years ago the electric car seemed improbable - and to many still is, despite it being here - and now I have two of them.




edited slightly to make my contention a little clearer.

 

[biggs682]

Certainly lots of work to be done ie re fueling points

 

[roubaixtuesday]

The stuff is being created as a by product of industrial processes, no one is burning fuel specifically to make the stuff in industrial quantities.

Do you have a source for that - I think you may be mistaken?

My understanding is that almost all current industrial hydrogen production is by steam reforming of methane - specifically for H2 production, not as a byproduct. But I can't immediately find any figures.

[Edit: here you go - 95% is by steam reforming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production]

It's certainly the case that UK plans to increase hydrogen production do rely on steam reforming and CCS ("blue hydrogen") so any big increase in hydrogen for transport would be fossil fuel reliant. How much you believe in the abiolity of large scale CCS defines its carbon impact.

Certainly lots of work to be done ie re fueling points

That's not even the biggest issue. The round cycle efficiency is far lower for hydrogen from renewables than for batteries: You have losses at every stage:

- electrolysis of water
- compression and storage
- distribution
- conversion back in a fuel cell

So you need 2-3x the electricity production.

 

[Tenkaykev]

So in the last couple of days BMW have announced how they hope to have hydrogen cars ready for sale in 2025

https://www.dhakatribune.com/business/338624/bmw-bids-farewell-to-electric-cars-set-to-launch

https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/topics/discover/concept-cars/bmw-ix5-hydrogen-overview.html

And then Honda and GM announced this https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/25/gm-honda-begin-us-fuel-cell-production.html

We will have to see what happens

A " concept " vehicle then according to the article. The elephant in the room that's always glossed over is who is going to build the hydrogen infrastructure? Hydrogen may have its place in static locations such as docks and ports but not as a general fuel.
You can generate electricity from various sources, use it to charge the batteries in vehicles then discharge the electricity to drive the vehicles, or you can generate electricity from various sources, use ( a lot ) to generate and compress hydrogen to a liquid, transport it by tanker to a filling station, fill up your ( hydrogen ) tank then use the hydrogen in the tank to feed a special fuel cell which uses the hydrogen to produce electricity to drive your vehicle.

 

[gbb]

Early on I held some hope for hydrogen being a more viable solution for the masses, as opposed to EVs.
But I suspect its not going to be the case.

There is no doubt hydrogen cars will work, do work, thus enabling zero emissions. Like EVs though, getting the infrastructure into place is one thing, add to that, how do you create green hydrogen is another .
It may be part of the future, but I'm not sure it will be THE future.

 

[Drago]

Do you have a source for that - I think you may be mistaken?

My understanding is that almost all current industrial hydrogen production is by steam reforming of methane - specifically for H2 production, not as a byproduct. But I can't immediately find any figures.

[Edit: here you go - 95% is by steam reforming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production]

It's certainly the case that UK plans to increase hydrogen production do rely on steam reforming and CCS ("blue hydrogen") so any big increase in hydrogen for transport would be fossil fuel reliant. How much you believe in the abiolity of large scale CCS defines its carbon impact.



That's not even the biggest issue. The round cycle efficiency is far lower for hydrogen from renewables than for batteries: You have losses at every stage:

- electrolysis of water
- compression and storage
- distribution
- conversion back in a fuel cell

So you need 2-3x the electricity production.

Ah, indeed, but for making fuel to power vehicles they won't be using the methane reformation method, if only because it isn't easily scalable, both physically or economically, for the quantities that would be required in such widespread use.

What people are doing today to create moderate quantities of the stuff for use in industrial processes is not what they'll be doing tomorrow when unspeakably enormous quantities are required for transport - that's the assumption the likes of the Gruinard have made. Capture of waste H from hydrocarbon processing is the only potentially viable supply of H in those quantities...if a means of capture can be devised that has an economic case in its favour.

I'm not a champion, but I'm not dismissive either. The larger the vehicle the less viable bettery tech becomes, and that's where H is liable to have a future, if it has one at all. Who wants a lorry that takes an age to charge when it should be out on the road earning its keep? Who wants to plug in a freighter at the quayside and wait 60 years for its batteries to charge? Those are the sort of places H might find a future. Certainly it won't find a future if these various companies don't push the boundaries of their research.

 

[fossyant]

My Uni is involved is some major research into Hydrogen. It makes a lot of sense to convert some heavy industry over from gas, so they are looking at a commercial site in Trafford Park (with many partners) - then any hydrogen could be used by the industry in the Industrial Park.

The major down side - it uses huge amounts of electricity to produce, so if that's not green then it's pointless. As it stands it's very expensive to make. It won't be available for cars for some time.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Ah, indeed, but for making fuel to power vehicles they won't be using the methane reformation method, if only because it isn't easily scalable, both physically or economically, for the quantities that would be required in such widespread use.

What people are doing today to create moderate quantities of the stuff for use in industrial processes is not what they'll be doing tomorrow when unspeakably enormous quantities are required for transport - that's the assumption the likes of the Gruinard have made. Capture of waste H from hydrocarbon processing is the only potentially viable supply of H in those quantities...if a means of capture can be devised that has an economic case in its favour.

I'm not a champion, but I'm not dismissive either. The larger the vehicle the less viable bettery tech becomes, and that's where H is liable to have a future, if it has one at all. Who wants a lorry that takes an age to charge when it should be out on the road earning its keep? Who wants to plug in a freighter at the quayside and wait 60 years for its batteries to charge? Those are the sort of places H might find a future. Certainly it won't find a future if these various companies don't push the boundaries of their research.

I don't understand why you believe that large quantities of hydrogen are available as a byproduct of refining or chemical processing of hydrocarbons. It seems to be the opposite from what I can discover (I am a fellow of the IChemE btw, though I don't work in that sector).

As it stands, hydrogen is an input to those processes, not an output, and is generated almost exclusively by steam reforming of methane, in substantial large scale amounts (it most definitely is scalable).

What's your source for believing that hydrogen is available as a byproduct of hydrocarbon processing?

 

[Tenkaykev]

The ( American) Car and Driver magazine had an article about the practicalities and actualities of Hydrogen fuelled vehicles.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a41103863/hydrogen-cars-fcev/

 

[BrumJim]

Been involved in a design for a hydrogen powered train.

Hydrogen is a pain. It behaves differently from most gasses (heats on expansion), causes embrittlement to steel pipes and needs a very big and heavy tank to store any reasonable quantity of it.

Fuel cells are good too, but don't have the throttle response of ICE, and therefore need battery support.

Storing it ready for use is also challenging. Again, you either need a massive storage facility, or run and dangerously high pressures.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Been involved in a design for a hydrogen powered train.

Hydrogen is a pain. It behaves differently from most gasses (heats on expansion), causes embrittlement to steel pipes and needs a very big and heavy tank to store any reasonable quantity of it.

Fuel cells are good too, but don't have the throttle response of ICE, and therefore need battery support.

Storing it ready for use is also challenging. Again, you either need a massive storage facility, or run and dangerously high pressures.

The Toyota Mirai has carbon fibre tanks at 700 atmospheres. I wouldn't say that's dangerous per se, but it does present challenges.

 

[Dadam]

Beware the vested interests touting anything as a panacea. With hydrogen that includes manufacturers on the back foot with the rush to BEVs. and companies with large investments in it, also fuel refinement, distribution and sales infrastructure.

Hydrogen has advantages and disadvantages. It burns 100% clean, the only product of combustion is water, and it can be used to generate electricity on demand in fuel cells. It is hugely abundant, although it is locked up in water and hydrocarbons. It also has disadvantages, in the energy needed to extract it and in problems with storage. The only 100% "clean" extraction method is electrolysis from water (which takes a shedload of electricity) but only IF the electricity used is 100% renewable. The somewhat advantage is then you can just store the H2 which is light, and either capture the O2 for other purposes, or even vent it off (oxygen is pretty much negative pollution). So that makes it very energy dense. But you do have to factor in the weight of the tanks and the losses in extraction, compression and storage.

I believe it's going to play a part for trucks and heavy plant but it's not the panacea. Like BEVs, and cycling, and walking, and e-bikes and decent public transport, none of which are panaceas on their own but all should form part of the solution.

 

[markemark]

I read recently that hydrogen is the fuel of the future but sadly it’ll always be the fuel of the future.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Beware the vested interests touting anything as a panacea. With hydrogen that includes manufacturers on the back foot with the rush to BEVs. and companies with large investments in it, also fuel refinement, distribution and sales infrastructure.

Hydrogen has advantages and disadvantages. It burns 100% clean, the only product of combustion is water, and it can be used to generate electricity on demand in fuel cells. It is hugely abundant, although it is locked up in water and hydrocarbons. It also has disadvantages, in the energy needed to extract it and in problems with storage. The only 100% "clean" extraction method is electrolysis from water (which takes a shedload of electricity) but only IF the electricity used is 100% renewable. The somewhat advantage is then you can just store the H2 which is light, and either capture the O2 for other purposes, or even vent it off (oxygen is pretty much negative pollution). So that makes it very energy dense. But you do have to factor in the weight of the tanks and the losses in extraction, compression and storage.

I believe it's going to play a part for trucks and heavy plant but it's not the panacea. Like BEVs, and cycling, and walking, and e-bikes and decent public transport, none of which are panaceas on their own but all should form part of the solution.

Hydrogen is not energy dense by volume, quite the opposite - it needs compressing to huge pressure (700 atmospheres as above for cars) to make it dense enough.