in praise of USADA

[007fair]

If anyone has the question WHY would USADA spend over 3/4 of their budget on chasing 1 retired athlete (not a whole sport!) in 2012 when all the current athletes are preparing for London 2012 it comes from historic vendettas between UCI and WADA. USADA basically ignored their own athletes in 2012 as they prepared for their 1 in 4 years atempt at 1 event to chase 1 retired athlete.
The current USADA case also contravenes WADC rules on a number of levels and reflects the 2005 affair but with a different result.
Anyone who believes this matter is about 1 rider who doped needs to look at the history and determine how they feel. UCI and WADA as far as I am concerned are a disgrace and need reformed.
This whole matter is HYPED up by Tygart ...
Read the title of USADA report and look at the sanctions and then say this was not an orchestrated witch hunt against 1 man to get at 1 organisation.
Sickening for Cycling and sickening for Sport.

You are doing the opposite from convincing me because your choice words makes me feel you are trying to force your opinion rather use logical arguments based on the facts or the big picture

Vendetta..?
I'm no expert but it appears to me that USADA did exactly what they are supposed to do. You say they had a 'vendetta' against UCI but surely it was because the UCI were were an obstruction where they should have been an allied force - either through incompetence or because they were in on the deceipt. USADA must have found that frustrating - as did many people - as they knew what was going on. That is not a definition of vendetta.

Why do you dislike USADA when they were the only ones with enough substance to see the problem though - would you rather the sport was left as it was? ... WHY?

Hype HYPE!
Tygart / HYPED ..? if you compare your description of Tygart to Tygart in person the only conclusion I would come to is whoever wrote the description was damning himself with inaccuracy (Ulterior motive). People have said that their focus on LA is not fair but the omerta was so strong that they had to focus somewhere and the top/ highest profile/ toughest nut was the obvious choice. Break that and the rest would follow.

If Tygarts words were Hyped - then can you tell me who has deceived more people for so long than LA ? If no one .. then are they not just stating the facts?

Witch Hunt .. As above. Seems strange that LA used this phrase often. Witches don't exist - Dope cheats do. 'Witch Hunt' are words used by the guilty frustrated that the accusation is persistent. Are USADA to be damned for persistence? If the guilty won't admit no matter what evidence is on the table then they deserve to be hounded forever. Or do we reward stubborn denial with reprieve? There was always a way to stop the witch hunt - but LA wouldn't / couldn't take it ..

 

[Orbytal]

@dogtired So when your employer send you a letter, the only IOC Member to get one, that’s a slap on the wrists. I take it when D Pound himself talk about being reprimanded that’s BS as well.

Who worked for who? Does Tygart work for Pound at any time or Fahey? Nope!!!

Vendetta? Suppose I did mean that as I said it in the post! Maybe you should read about what I am saying and be more accurate and when you research stuff try and do the same.

Try looking closer at what the whole 2005 issue included with the requests made to FFC from WADA and see what these were and what their remit was. I would be interested to know what you think!

How much do YOU know about Mr Pound? Maybe before you jump in and say no vendetta and no corruption you should look into it a LOT more and see what he has done in his career how many organisations and sports he has accused of doping.

NHL 2/3 doping by Mr Pound. Really where did you get your figures from Mr Pound OH I actually made them up. Try that one.

OR

The whole USA track and field are doping really how do you figure that OH it’s obvious isn’t it?

OR

The Jamaican sprinters are doping. How do you get that Mr Pound OH I think they are!

WOW and this is what is good in sport and you like to defend that guy?

Why don’t we go to Mr Fahey with his Mr Contador was getting a suspended sentence until the Spanish President spoke up for him so now he is getting a ban instead. GREAT so a ban = who speaks up.

GET YOUR facts straights first before trying to jump in with what you say.

I am happy to go over ANYTHING I say but please don’t come back with opinion and nonsense. It’s like you believe he is a Copper so he must be a good guy. Naive and deluded and no idea about the history of sport let alone the long running feud between cycling and WADA.

What about 2005 test were positive Mr Pound said and it looked very like it SO Can YOU tell me why LA was not sanctioned? Let’s see how much you know about 6 positive tests and NO sanctions. WHY no sanctions big guy. You like to take short answers on a post that I am happy to debate at length with you but you appear to devoid of critical facts.

You can do what richp does and make out you know something but cannot be bothered to deal with it which basically means you know nothing, no comment = no comment = no knowledge.

You also appear to have a fan club on this s so why not get everyone working on it and we shall see where we end up.

I suspect you will start and see what I have and hopefully you will be big enough to say OK there is a point here. But I am not holding my breath as it appears that IF you don’t like a comment it’s wrong.

I also assume from I read you believe LA and he alone doped or USPS alone doped and had exclusive UCI access!

Let’s see what you have and feel free to involve the entourage.

Remember try and look outside the black and white as you will find more answers there.

Keep it real big man.

 

[Orbytal]

@007 Do YOU believe doing it now or next year or at least later in the year would change the decision?

I don’t and I question WHY do at a 1 in 4 year time? Why at that time spend the majority of the budget on it in an Olympic year.

If you had the biggest year of your business life would you take the same steps or plan it out so you can do justice to both. LA is retired all the current athletes are not.

Let me know why you feel it was justified at this time?

HYPE! Have you read the language in the USADA file? It is NOT a prosecution submission but looks like one it should be reasoned and it gives NO historical data on riders and sanctions they have had and why to provide a balanced view and explain why on this occasion they accept the balance of testimony and how it fits together.

What about Confidentiality clause in WADC? How do you agree with athlete’s names to remain secret until a charge sheet is issued but USADA named him and others but kept witness names quiet and also informed the public of the charges and his guilt before the charge sheet was issued! When they issued the sanctions are you aware that the press received them before LA?

My argument is not did he dope, of course he did and so did all the other Teams doing EXACTLY the same. My issue is when those governing sports cannot work within their own rules and offer 1 athlete as the ends justifies the means!

I knew he was doping when I watched him because I knew everyone before doped and since. The sport is cleaner WRT EPO but still being used as micro doping but the new challenge is genetic modified stimulation for enhancement and WADA are playing catch up.

If you believe the ends justifies the means then fine I don’t. I would rather they changed the rules for compliance and not ignore them.

Why do you think IOC for the first time in their history wrote to a Member warning them of their conduct?

If you have any issue about what I am saying go and look at reallocating titles. A hint for you is 2005 goes to Sastre as all others dopers, admitted or caught and/or by DR association or Team association. Sastre finished in 21st place.

Try looking also at Sastre climbing times and his output on them also and you will see that whilst NOT being the best climber he did so quicker than confirmed EPO users so how does that balance with you/all?

 

[dellzeqq]

D Pound was seriously reprimanded by IOC for his intervention with French lab forcing them to extract LA samples as part of a supposed group test and also revealed to press about the tests. IOC said if they had jurisdiction over Pound he would have been sacked. His actions contravened WADC rules and basically corrupted the integrity of WADA and their procedures. His actions led to UCI taking Legal action against him.
He was replaced after calls for his head.

UCI and WADA have been at war for years and it is shameful. Look at Vrijam report.

first of all - I see what you're saying about Vaughters - I had taken your first reference to him as an accusation of doping.

but........in all honesty I'm not given to trust anything that comes out of Switzerland, and that goes for the IOC as much as it does the UCI. It's a country that rich people go to to escape taxes and justice. That the IOC disapproved of Pound is to his credit.

You say repeatedly that they were all at it. I'm happy to concede that most of them were at it, but that neither excuses Armstrong nor does it negate the evidence that he leant on others. I think of the USADA investigation as a kind of decapitation, albeit not a particularly effective one because Armstrong has, effectively, got away with it. It's a token of intent on behalf of the authorities, and of value for that reason alone. It's not the second coming of Christ, and I grant you that some of the celebrations are more emotional than politically rational, but it's better than nothing, and, at the moment, the best there is.

It's also freed a couple of people from intimidation, and that can't be a bad thing.

 

[Orbytal]

@richp Nice comments about Vrijam report much derided.

So how do you account for 6 positive samples from 15 from LA confirmed by WADA Lab BUT there was NO Sanctions. WADA did nothing about 6 positive samples between 2005 and 2012 allowing a confirmed positive testing athlete to compete and allow him to sign up AGAIN to their Code as an Elite athlete.

Rich can you please tell me and everyone else when an athlete has 6 not 1,2,3 etc. but 6 positive test he has NOTHING done to him?

I can agree or disagree with you about the Vrijam report and to say much derided means load of crap SO again richp how did LA get away with it? You need to explain if it was not due to WADA complete incompetence and acts in the whole testing arrangement?

I actually agree with you about the Vrijam report it was BS BUT the tests were positive and LA got off because a Lawyer tore the whole process to shreds because it was carried out with such incompetence.

You say I talk BS on WADA and now the Report that got LA off was BS. Why can’t you actually see you are contradicting yourself so much and the points I am making are NOT what you are thinking.

UCI corrupt YES and for many of the reasons you state but proving it is harder.

WADA corrupt because they found 6 positive samples and allowed an athlete to get away with on a technically due to their involvement and processes. They not only held the door open for LA to get away they made sure it didn't him on the way out as well.

DISAGREE richp tell what it was all about then and show a reasoned argument instead of immature words lined through as that shows you have no argument either way other than what someone has told you! You have 2 comments that contradict so let’s see how you get out of it.

Do tell!

 

[Orbytal]

@dellzqq you share my sentiments as well about the Swiss Haven for all corrupt organisation and WADA also share that honour. I know some will be gagging to correct my error that they are in Montreal which is correct HOWEVER their whole Code is based on Swiss Law so any cases are based in that with 2 further options also based in Switzerland being CAS then SSS.

I would not place too much credit on Pound with IOC disapproval as he is still a member and was the driving force to bring all the external revenues and setting up all the financial arrangements that we all know they ALL are involved in benefitting from.

IOC are on a par with FIFA as being the most corrupt organisations around but also remember IOC created and fund WADA and if it doesn’t quite go to plan the funding will be affected!

The one fact that I find is part of the HYPE is Doping in Cycling is nothing new and when we hear about omerta it is alive and well just look at the recent support for LA but also remember how many Euro's are in the admissions?

Omerta is not just riders it also covers all the journos, media, sponsors etc. basically everybody who was aware of doping from years ago right through to now. We ALL knew so in many ways we are all part of the omerta watching it and being involved.

Did we enjoy it, of course we did and we shall keep watching like all other sports and as long as anti-doping is funded by the IOC etc it shall never have the ability to do a better job.

2012 Olympics had 4 positive tests and the DR in charge said we are so far behind doping!

USADA get $10million to cover all sports and Nike, Oakley, Festina, Skoda, Orange can do this in 1 marketing campaign and all support sport and cycling.

Also as long as public consumption is based on media frenzy and not looking into what the whole story is/was it shall feel like inroads are being made and they are not and basically will never be made until change is made.

1 cyclist has been uncovered who is more dear to USA than everywhere else that retired years ago and now banned so he sets up his own Tri events attracting EVERY sponsor who said they dumped him to take part.

Does that tell us if sponsors have morals are just like athletes 'following the money'.

This shall only be a cross roads if it makes changes across the board not just in Cycling.

 

[mickle]

+1

+ me

 

[Orbytal]

@mickle any thoughts on why USADA allowed confirmed dopers to ride when they had testified as doping for at least 2 years? Doesn't WADC Rules say must confirm to Federation and WADA or receive investigation why it was not reported?

What about salaries taken, sponsors money, prize money etc. all in that time when in reality should have been banned?

Any whitewash in the Whitehouse with that?

 

[SportMonkey]

Anyone else think that with all his new found spare time Lance Armstrong could be posting as Orbytal, it makes more sense than the garbage Orbytal is coming out with.

 

[Russell Allen]

Orbytal - your rants are crass in the extreme

 

[rich p]

I have 3 choices. I can't decide whether to answer these ludicrous, unsubstantiated claims, let someone else with more time do it or just put Orbytal onto my currently vacant ignore list.

I'm still on option 2 but veering towards option 3.
The rants and garbage are swerving between 'car crash forum fun' and 'can I be arsed to read this tripe'.

 

[Orbytal]

@russell allen Can you explain why you find them to be crass in that way please? I would hope that if nothing else my comments make people start to question not just the LA event but the associated connection and fall out it has with all other sports.

You may also feel like they are rants but they are based on genuine concerns built around facts and reasoned argument. Like all things in life there is always more than 1 perspective to be viewed.

I have made statements on events and offered comments to balance them regardless if they are popular or not to allow you and anyone else to debate them but leaving a no or rubbish or crass doesn't say why you disagree. Is it a forum or Facebook where you just leave a like or dislike?

Share why you disagree I am genuinely interested.

 

[Orbytal]

@richp you were @rsed to condemn my posts quickly and when I challenge your reasoning I get back comments more befitting a nervous kid than an adult!

You think it's tripe fine, but why are my comments not acceptable, what makes them wrong to you?

I am sure you are better than this and hope you will explain in detail your objections in your next post.

 

[dellzeqq]

Orbytal - you have an inability to distinguish between best efforts and total adherence to principles. USADA clearly cut a deal with some offenders - that's a feature of the US justice system and one could argue that their rather more robust response to the financial crisis was made possible by deal-making. I don't concern myself with Hamilton and Landis - they'd turned, they've served a purpose and they're gone. The plain straightforward fact of the matter that they helped to nail the most prominent cheat.

And....yes, we agree that Lance is not going to be cast down in to penury. He will still front up Livestrong. Well, sorry, but life's like that, and I reckon that USADA has done about as much as is humanly possible to see him shamed and to reduce the likelyhood of Lance 2 emerging any time soon.

Life isn't perfect - as the UCI demonstrate every day of the week, but USADA has made cycling a whole lot healthier. So...as the thread title says, let us praise them.

 

[007fair]

@007 Do YOU believe doing it now or next year or at least later in the year would change the decision?

I don’t and I question WHY do at a 1 in 4 year time? Why at that time spend the majority of the budget on it in an Olympic year.

If you had the biggest year of your business life would you take the same steps or plan it out so you can do justice to both. LA is retired all the current athletes are not.
Let me know why you feel it was justified at this time?

This process is long running - It wasn't planned to climax in the Olympic year unfortunate as it was. That is not a sign of corruption. They had to see it through as the moment arose. LA could have shortened the process considerably. The fact Armstrong is retired is neither here or there .. it will make dopers think again because even if they get away with it now they will have to live the rest of their lives wondering if someone will shop them.

Anyway - you DO rant. Your posts come across and angry and confrontational. If you want to convince someone that USADA are the bad guys you will need a huge amount of reasoned facts stated factually. At the moment you are more conspiracy theorist with time on your hands looking for a fight!