Indicating bike wing-mirrors - a Mercedes wing mirror for a bike

[shouldbeinbed]

I'd need to take Yoga classes to get a photo like that. I have no idea how your forearm obscures your hand, though.

if you'd need ypoga classes to take the pic, you'd need yoga classes to see it in action surely, maybe I'm a bit more supple than you

my arm is sticking out slightly in front of my shoulder, further forward than is normal when throwing it out to indicate and angled down a bit lower than shoulder height to give me any semblence of reasonable view of the back of my hand, it feels unnatural and is really not an intuitive arm position to take in the spare room let alone when whizzing along in the weather and rush hour. I would then have to orientate my hand with a solid chunk of mirror on it to see behind at all and would still need to give myself a fixed point of reference to gauge vehicle distance and width from me. On a bar end mirror, this fixed point is usually the edge of my leg just encroaching into the mirror area, with your hand you have nothing like that, If you've ever used bike mirrors you will understand how disorientating it can be trying to gauge closing speed, distance and how far in/out a vehicle is from you without a consistent known fixed point in the mirror, impossible whilst the mirror won't ever be in exactly the same place twice and you are moving at a different rate to the viewed object and against a building etc (that whilst static is not a fixed point as you are moving and it isn't) or a view of the sky.

When I said that bar-end mirrors would stick out, I meant if they were the same size as what you could comfortably fit onto the back of your hand.

sorry but no - here is the zefal dooback I use on my flat/moustache bars and have done for 15+ years. the part taped up is the bar joint bit, kit is lying flat & crossways here but in position on the bike it adds 1 cm width to the open mirror. Like I said before, if that is clipping a vehicle when I'm riding then there's a serious problem about to happen.



I couldn't fix it at both ends and still get the glove on, I tried when already in the glove and could not flex my fingers far enough to brake or click a gear. I suspect gripshift would be impossible in it too. it is a slight convex mirror and I inclined it in the same manner as it would be when bar ended, yet it was damn near impossible to get a rearward view at all, it took a quite painful contortion and as above zero context to frame what I am seeing in there in such a way as to be safe trusting my manouvre (life) to it.

smaller mirror length (flat, from a make up compact)

full size -

taped 1/2 cm either end to hold it in place



My hands are entirely normal size for a 5'10" tall bloke and even that relatively small mirror was impossible to manouvre into and out of comfortably with the same issues around flexibility at the wrist and digits and uncontextualised rearward image, being flat the issues of being impossible to see anything in were even greater, I would have to break bones and tendons or be deformed to see out of it. It is far less manipulatable than armoured motorcycle gloves, which is the nearest comparison I can think of.

It is a non starter. you'd need a fixed point, control of the bike, a natural body flow and not just peripheral vision constantly and immediately available to you front and rearward facing. Your plan has none of these. Also from comments here and elsewhere whenever mirrors crop up, I'd say approx 90-95% of riders think they are stupid and/or useless and would not even consider the idea let alone spoil the line of a bike with one, the other 5-10% or so that do 'get' the benefits have already found that the options out there that work and don't need reinventing.

I've knocked up a quick couple of prototypes, am giving you years of experience of daily perfectly happy and safe mirror use. I've years of trial and error with dozens of the things and even the worst were far better than what I taped to my gloves.
I'm not being unkind but you need someone to highlight in practice the glaring holes in something you've done a 2D drawing of and no disrespect but you really don't come across as a bike mirror user nor having any sort of understanding of how differentially moving objects interact in a mirror.

 

[shouldbeinbed]

To be honest, the real solution would be bike-mounted indicators, so we don't ever have to take our hands off the bars. It's a shame those haven't taken off.

again, there is a good reason for this. put simply, they would be in far too close proximity to one another unless they were a big bulky cumbersome unit with a clearly discernable direction arrow. there isn't the faring or bulk of a motorbike to give a clue nor the 6 foot gap between them of a car

even then, they are not something anybody has ever associated with a pedal bike and nobody on the road or pedestrians thinking of crossing would expect the orange blinky light on a bike to be an indicator. Without a mass education campaign they would be counterintuitive and dangerous to implement, even if the design flaws could be sorted.

 

[Kookas]

I

if you'd need ypoga classes to take the pic, you'd need yoga classes to see it in action surely, maybe I'm a bit more supple than you

my arm is sticking out slightly in front of my shoulder, further forward than is normal when throwing it out to indicate and angled down a bit lower than shoulder height to give me any semblence of reasonable view of the back of my hand, it feels unnatural and is really not an intuitive arm position to take in the spare room let alone when whizzing along in the weather and rush hour. I would then have to orientate my hand with a solid chunk of mirror on it to see behind at all and would still need to give myself a fixed point of reference to gauge vehicle distance and width from - on a bar end mirror, this is usually the edge of my leg just encroaching into the mirror area, with your hand you have nothing like that, If you've ever used bike mirrors you will understand how disorientating it can be trying to gauge closing speed, distance and how far in/out a vehicle is from you without a consistent known fixed point in the mirror, impossible whilst you are moving at a different rate to the viewed object against a building etc (that whilst static is not a fixed point as you are moving and it isn't) or a view of the sky.



sorry but no - here is the zefal dooback I use on my flat/moustache bars and have done for 15+ years. the part taped up is the bar joint bit, kit is lying flat & crossways here but in position on the bike it adds 1 cm width to the open mirror. Like I said before, if that is clipping a vehicle when I'm riding then there's a serious problem about to happen.



I couldn't fix it at both ends and still get the glove on, I tried when already in the glove and could not flex my fingers far enough to brake or click a gear. I suspect gripshift would be impossible in it too. it is a slight convex mirror and I inclined it in the same manner as it would be when bar ended, yet it was damn near impossible to get a rearward view at all, it took a quite painful contortion and as above zero context to frame what I am seeing in there in such a way as to be safe trusting my manouvre (life) to it.

smaller mirror length (flat, from a make up compact)

full size -

taped 1/2 cm either end to hold it in place



My hands are entirely normal size for a 5'10" tall bloke and even that relatively small mirror was impossible to manouvre into and out of comfortably with the same issues around flexibility at the wrist and digits and uncontextualised rearward image, being flat the issues of being impossible to see anything in were even greater, I would have to break bones and tendons or be deformed to see out of it. It is far less manipulatable than armoured motorcycle gloves, which is the nearest comparison I can think of.

It is a non starter. you'd need a fixed point, control of the bike, a natural body flow and not just peripheral vision constantly and immediately available to you front and rearward facing. Your plan has none of these. Also from comments here and elsewhere whenever mirrors crop up, I'd say approx 90-95% of riders think they are stupid and/or useless and would not even consider the idea let alone spoil the line of a bike with one, the other 5-10% or so that do 'get' the benefits have already found that the options out there that work and don't need reinventing.

I've knocked up a quick couple of prototypes, am giving you years of experience of daily perfectly happy and safe mirror use. I've years of trial and error with dozens of the things and even the worst were far better than what I taped to my gloves.
I'm not being unkind but you need someone to highlight in practice the glaring holes in something you've done a 2D drawing of and no disrespect but you really don't come across as a bike mirror user nor having any sort of understanding of how differentially moving objects interact in a mirror.

Fair enough, it was just a concept which I didn't really have the resources to actually test. And to be honest, something like this, as with most bike components, is always going to be a niche product, because cycling is a bit of a niche field. I appreciate the effort you've gone to to actually see how this idea fares.

I wouldn't throw bike indicators away so soon, though. Yes, drivers probably assume that a flashing light on a bike is just for safety and has no meaning, but it doesn't have to be that way. Surely, there's no denying that some bar-end indicators like those on the Tacx Lumos would be better than what we have?

Also, some posters like Crankarm and roadrash had a certain way of coming across as a bit up themselves (though on that note, Crankarm seems to make a habit of it). I wonder what makes them so bitter?

 

[Tim Hall]

Indicators on a bike will be next to useless. Every now and then someone tries to put some on the market,thinking it's the next big thing. Things against them:
Bikes are narrow things, so there isn't much width to mark with as blinky orange light.
For the light to be noticeable, it'll have to be bright. Really bright, so it can be seen in daylight. And that'll be expensive. And big. Or will need a big battery.
Motorists aren't looking for a tiddly blinky orange light to show where you're going. (Sadly some motorists aren't looking where you're going at all, but that's another story). Those that are looking are conditioned to see a big hand sticking out. Don't confuse them.
You'll need four of these per bike.
A bike is a beautifully simple, elegant means of transport. Don't make it complicated.

 

[Whiskey88]

With cameras on bikes becoming so popular as well as these garmin type display things why has no one made the logical step of connecting a rear facing camera to a screen on the handle bars so that you can see behind comfortably and at whatever magnification suits.

Like this: http://www.geekalerts.com/bicycle-rearview-camera/

 

[Kookas]

Indicators on a bike will be next to useless. Every now and then someone tries to put some on the market,thinking it's the next big thing. Things against them:
Bikes are narrow things, so there isn't much width to mark with as blinky orange light.
For the light to be noticeable, it'll have to be bright. Really bright, so it can be seen in daylight. And that'll be expensive. And big. Or will need a big battery.
Motorists aren't looking for a tiddly blinky orange light to show where you're going. (Sadly some motorists aren't looking where you're going at all, but that's another story). Those that are looking are conditioned to see a big hand sticking out. Don't confuse them.
You'll need four of these per bike.
A bike is a beautifully simple, elegant means of transport. Don't make it complicated.

My main concern is that when you come up to a turn, you need to move out, brake, and then negotiate the turn. You obviously can't keep indicating all throughout that sequence. You need your hands on the bars for the turn, and you might well want both brakes, too.

You have to rely on whatever driver is going to come up behind you next having seen your arm in that brief period where you had your arm out. I know I'd rather have a constant notice. Perhaps it does have to be shaped like an arrow at first. That doesn't necessarily mean it will have to be big, just eye-catching.

It's a bit like if any of you use IRC. If someone says that they're just going to grab a cuppa, anyone who joins won't have a clue why they're not replying to their private messages or whatever. On the other hand, if that person changes their status and marks their username as Away, it doesn't matter when the other user joins, because it will say 'Away' until the guy comes back.

I don't see how an indicating light is any more complicated than hand signals, or the standard front and back lights on a bike.

 

[roadrash]

im certainly not up myself (ive tried ....... i cant reach) its just that it took all of twenty seconds to think of a long list of reasons why it wouldnt work , and i can see no reason why anyone that cycles would think that it could.
my original statement still stands


oh and comparing me to crank arm ..................

 

[Kookas]

im certainly not up myself (ive tried ....... i cant reach) its just that it took all of twenty seconds to think of a long list of reasons why it wouldnt work , and i can see no reason why anyone that cycles would think that it could.
my original statement still stands


oh and comparing me to crank arm ..................

I get that you didn't like the concept, but you didn't need to go above and beyond. I posted one concept. Your response was more like I'd just posted a photo of me failing primary school SATs aged 20.

 

[roadrash]

but if you had a mirror on the back of your hand you could copy the sats answers from the person sat behind you .....you seriously need thicker skin , or a humour transplant , or glasses if you didnt see the smiley on the end of my post ,it wasnt entirely serious

 

[Kookas]

but if you had a mirror on the back of your hand you could copy the sats answers from the person sat behind you .....you seriously need thicker skin , or a humour transplant , or glasses if you didnt see the smiley on the end of my post ,it wasnt entirely serious

Oh, I thought you were being completely serious. In that case, what I said was misplaced. Sorry about that. There were some people who just saw nothing but an opportunity to jump on someone for not getting it right, though.

 

[roadrash]

no need to apologise im probably wrong ...i allways am according to mrs roadrash

 

[EltonFrog]

Like this: http://www.geekalerts.com/bicycle-rearview-camera/

That is fundamentally quite a good idea, but it looks shoot. And for that reason I'm out.

 

[Cyclopathic]

Like this: http://www.geekalerts.com/bicycle-rearview-camera/

Well, perhaps a little bit like this. Or indeed exactly like this. All this proves is that somewhere time travel exists and some one has leapt forward in time from then and taken my idea back to then. Obviously.
My revised idea does include another screen to show the forward view though. Obviously an innovation too far for these time travelling plagerists.

 

[Kookas]

Actually, that screen made me think of something. If you had a proximity sensor attached to the bike and a warning light attached to a wing mirror, it could alert you to anyone who's getting too close or coming up behind you too fast. Then you look in your wing mirror and see if you need to might need to take evasive action, or be careful when you're stopping.

 

[Tim Hall]

Actually, that screen made me think of something. If you had a proximity sensor attached to the bike and a warning light attached to a wing mirror, it could alert you to anyone who's getting too close or coming up behind you too fast. Then you look in your wing mirror and see if you need to might need to take evasive action, or be careful when you're stopping.

Or just use your ears, eyes and road sense.

In other news, bike indicators are here.