biggs682
Touch it up and ride it
- Location
- Northamptonshire
Yes a light bracket
Interesting find?
- Thread starter Pedro_orange
- Start date
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Yes a light bracket
CBGuy
Active Member
- Location
- Halifax, N.S. Canada
Is there an oiler nipple on top non driver side of BB (opposite side to pic you've sent) or is it on underside of BB as in photo attached?
Really need serial number to take this any further as far as dating and narrowing model. Number likely on bottom surface of BB as in attached photo. Although depending on year of build may be in a different orientation, yet still on bottom surface of BB . If up for it you may need to scrape off some paint. Other and often clearer source of serial is on fork stem (assuming original), which would entail pulling it.
Doug
Really need serial number to take this any further as far as dating and narrowing model. Number likely on bottom surface of BB as in attached photo. Although depending on year of build may be in a different orientation, yet still on bottom surface of BB . If up for it you may need to scrape off some paint. Other and often clearer source of serial is on fork stem (assuming original), which would entail pulling it.
Doug
Attachments
OP
OP
Pedro_orange
Active Member
- Location
- North East
No oil nipple as far as I can see.
CBGuy
Active Member
- Location
- Halifax, N.S. Canada
Nipple on BB seems to have generally disappeared by 1968. Assume hole is not simply filled? As it has a curved brake bridge (disappeared by 1974) this would seem to narrow the year between 1968 to 1973. Although fork crown looks older, that style fork crown did persist with the Cordon Bleu model (it had Nervex Pro lugs) until it ended after 1970. Catalogue pics are poor but I have seen a Classique (Prugnat 62S lugs) with that fork crown although it did not have a good date - makes me wonder if that was a feature of Classique until it disappeared after 1968.
Hate to be a bit of a dog with a bone but... any hint of a serial? If the serial also points to 1968, frame would likely be a Classique. Otherwise back to the drawing board.
Doug
Hate to be a bit of a dog with a bone but... any hint of a serial? If the serial also points to 1968, frame would likely be a Classique. Otherwise back to the drawing board.
Doug
OP
OP
Pedro_orange
Active Member
- Location
- North East
raleighnut
Legendary Member
- Location
- One of the 'Elite'
uphillstruggler
Guru
- Location
- Half way there
this really is the beauty of the internet. a bloke in Canada helping a bloke in England id a bike.
excellent stuff and knowledge @CBGuy
CBGuy
Active Member
- Location
- Halifax, N.S. Canada
Pedro_orange,
Ah-ha!
There we have it!
I apologize as hadn't noticed the oiler hole with evidence of serial in a prior pic. This new pic tells it all. The oiler hole on bottom of BB suggests '65 to '67. The serial according to prediction (don't claim 100%) places c.1966. However as #28003 is smack dab in the middle of 1966 (according to present prediction) this year is likely very accurate.
Looking at catalogues from www.nkilgariff.com , as described in an earlier post this frame looks like a Challenge style frame (with Prugnat 62S lugs) which in 1966 was only sold as an unbuilt up frame. However, built up models using this frame appear to have been the VeloValentino, the Classique and European and Super European.
Looking at kit on your bike there are Universal centre pull brakes, Ventoux bars and what looks from your pic - a B17N saddle. The European was the only model with this particular combo of kit on a Challenge "style" frame. The differences in the European and Super European was the Gran Sport versus Record rear derailleur and type of rims and tires/tubs. Do you have the derailleur or rims?
Kit could always be non original, but looks to me that this bike is adding up to a 1966 European and either the "ordinary" or Super model.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/76762476@N05/albums/with/72157690777745243
Doug
PS: Not thinking, I originally picked the moniker CBGuy not for Claud Butler but for the area of Nova Scotia where I am from. "Blokes"
might find interesting that Cape Breton has bilingual road signs - Gaelic and English!
Ah-ha!
There we have it!I apologize as hadn't noticed the oiler hole with evidence of serial in a prior pic. This new pic tells it all. The oiler hole on bottom of BB suggests '65 to '67. The serial according to prediction (don't claim 100%) places c.1966. However as #28003 is smack dab in the middle of 1966 (according to present prediction) this year is likely very accurate.
Looking at catalogues from www.nkilgariff.com , as described in an earlier post this frame looks like a Challenge style frame (with Prugnat 62S lugs) which in 1966 was only sold as an unbuilt up frame. However, built up models using this frame appear to have been the VeloValentino, the Classique and European and Super European.
Looking at kit on your bike there are Universal centre pull brakes, Ventoux bars and what looks from your pic - a B17N saddle. The European was the only model with this particular combo of kit on a Challenge "style" frame. The differences in the European and Super European was the Gran Sport versus Record rear derailleur and type of rims and tires/tubs. Do you have the derailleur or rims?
Kit could always be non original, but looks to me that this bike is adding up to a 1966 European and either the "ordinary" or Super model.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/76762476@N05/albums/with/72157690777745243
Doug
PS: Not thinking, I originally picked the moniker CBGuy not for Claud Butler but for the area of Nova Scotia where I am from. "Blokes"
might find interesting that Cape Breton has bilingual road signs - Gaelic and English!Attachments
Last edited:
OP
OP
Pedro_orange
Active Member
- Location
- North East
Sadly it was missing any shifters or derailleur. There are two wheels that don't appear to match, the front seems older than the rear but both are in a pretty poor state. Will try to clean them up and look for some markings. Is it better to check the hub or the rim?
CBGuy
Active Member
- Location
- Halifax, N.S. Canada
Going by details in the catalogue details I attached, rims would have been laced to Campagnolo Gran Sport small flange hubs. So if either of rims has a Gran Sport hub, it could be original. Perhaps replacement looking rim was re-laced to an original hub.
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=f6003587-3487-4e52-8858-2391fb817316&Enum=110
Per ad, original rims would have been either Fiamme HP and Fiamme Sprint for tubs with "Super". Again if check on Velobase you could probably see examples.
http://velobase.com/ViewBrand.aspx?BrandID=2fbfa01c-7767-41ff-9bc7-7d427091e6a4&From=T
I had Gran Sport hubs on my '65 Holdsworth Typhoon. Probably more knowledgeable folk than I re the Fiamme rims. Also take some good pics and I'm sure somebody here would help.
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=f6003587-3487-4e52-8858-2391fb817316&Enum=110
Per ad, original rims would have been either Fiamme HP and Fiamme Sprint for tubs with "Super". Again if check on Velobase you could probably see examples.
http://velobase.com/ViewBrand.aspx?BrandID=2fbfa01c-7767-41ff-9bc7-7d427091e6a4&From=T
I had Gran Sport hubs on my '65 Holdsworth Typhoon. Probably more knowledgeable folk than I re the Fiamme rims. Also take some good pics and I'm sure somebody here would help.
Kempstonian
Has the memory of a goldfish
- Location
- Bedford
It has a GB stem instead of the original Fiamme. Very popular back in the day and was probably changed to increase/decrease reach.
The seat stay might not be 100% but its far better than my CB which has a complete break in the seat tube! Not safe to ride now. Its a much later model, the frame number is on a label at the bottom of the seat tube (No. H 97076) It also has LB-01 under the BB, but I have no idea what that means. The rear dropouts both have T116 stamped on the inside surface.
The seat stay might not be 100% but its far better than my CB which has a complete break in the seat tube! Not safe to ride now. Its a much later model, the frame number is on a label at the bottom of the seat tube (No. H 97076) It also has LB-01 under the BB, but I have no idea what that means. The rear dropouts both have T116 stamped on the inside surface.
CBGuy
Active Member
- Location
- Halifax, N.S. Canada
Kempstonian
Good pick up re GB stem instead of Fiamme on OP's bike. Looks from catalogues that model is described as having a GB stem for 1967. Perhaps Holdsworthy switched stems during 1966, or it is actually built in later 1966 as a 1967 model (which was common practice) and/or the prediction is off a tad which is possible.
That serial for your frame you describe does not fit in known Holdsworthy serial patterns. Perhaps post Holdsworthy takeover by Marlboro in 1985 or something else going on re branding not yet recognized. Check out this link to Holdsworth Numbering Thread that describes a frame with perhaps similarities to yours. (I have been working along with dwscrimshaw on Holdsworthy numbers for a few years now.)
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/vi...id=a5507d5a60b14215e12fa9d75be7a79f&start=280
Good pick up re GB stem instead of Fiamme on OP's bike. Looks from catalogues that model is described as having a GB stem for 1967. Perhaps Holdsworthy switched stems during 1966, or it is actually built in later 1966 as a 1967 model (which was common practice) and/or the prediction is off a tad which is possible.
That serial for your frame you describe does not fit in known Holdsworthy serial patterns. Perhaps post Holdsworthy takeover by Marlboro in 1985 or something else going on re branding not yet recognized. Check out this link to Holdsworth Numbering Thread that describes a frame with perhaps similarities to yours. (I have been working along with dwscrimshaw on Holdsworthy numbers for a few years now.)
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/vi...id=a5507d5a60b14215e12fa9d75be7a79f&start=280
Kempstonian
Has the memory of a goldfish
- Location
- Bedford
Oh, I'm an idiot. I misread the serial number... its 957076. Also I should mention that the bike is/was an 'Elite' model and the serial number label is at the bottom of the down tube, not the seat tube!
My apologies
My apologies
OP
OP
Pedro_orange
Active Member
- Location
- North East
So the badly corroded front wheel hub just says made in England. Although is very small/thin and has a little clip covering a hole (for oil/grease?) And the rim I think says Turner England but the Turner bit has a spoke hole through it. The rear is from West Germany with matching hub and a Japanese free wheel.
CBGuy
Active Member
- Location
- Halifax, N.S. Canada
Pedro_orange,
Well those hubs/rims don't ring any bells with me. Maybe someone else has comments. Looks to be as far as we are able to go with ID. Knowing likely a c.1966 European and how it might have been built up originally is sometimes helpful in question re what to do - sell, simply build up and ride or possibly repair and restore??
Are you OK if I use your serial and pics on Flickr?
Doug
Well those hubs/rims don't ring any bells with me. Maybe someone else has comments. Looks to be as far as we are able to go with ID. Knowing likely a c.1966 European and how it might have been built up originally is sometimes helpful in question re what to do - sell, simply build up and ride or possibly repair and restore??
Are you OK if I use your serial and pics on Flickr?
Doug
